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    Post by Independence76 on September 11th 2010, 1:54 am

    Zez wrote:
    I can't respond directly because this response was too vague. Are you trying to say that I'm being contradictory for believing neutrality exists, because for neutrality to exist, a view of right and wrong must also exist? It's hard to tell what specifically you're referring to without any example or further explanation.

    I'm implying neutrality, by definition, is contradictory to what must exist. Neutrality not only implies that right and wrong exists, but it implies they are absolute. Through this, neutrality becomes an unachievable viewpoint, very similar with the idea of "Utopia." It also becomes impossible, as if such limits are absolutes, there are no "outside views."


    Again, what do you mean by "physical order"? If your concepts of right and wrong aren't 100%, how absolute are your absolutes? Absolutes are a complete whole, not a fraction of one.

    I'm talking about the mind's capacity, as stated earlier. While I cannot achieve full knowledge of all right and wrong, I believe absolutes do exist. If they do not, then this entire discussion is neither right or wrong. This is where contradiction sets in for neutrality.

    Take this statement:

    "We cannot know truth."

    This is self-refuting. The speaker is implying that his statement, is indeed, truth.


    I will concur, nature itself is not a random series of occurrences. I do however, believe that human's actions are not being controlled, manipulated or influenced by an outside force greater than any other animal or plant that exists, i.e; humans. This is not to say that an outside force does not exist. On the contrary, I do believe one does in fact exist. However, I deny any involvement of that force with human's actions, and at the very least, a direct contact or persuasion.

    This is known as "Deism." Or, more specifically, the belief we were created by a God, but has abandoned us until the return. This is not completely definable nor solid as a complete worldview. It will eventually lead to Nihilism, the belief that all is meaningless and well as the existence of a God is wrong. The next step is Naturalism, which develops as a love for nature and the general physical world (materialism). And finally, this will lead to Existentialism. This is the current worldview that society uses on a massive scale (along with the fully contradictory philosophy of "Postmodernism"). It insists that reality or truth is relative, absolutes are undefinable or either do not exist, and that emotions are the fuel of the human being.

    Direct contact is something of extreme rarity with a mathematical probability so low, the mind cannot comprehend how many 0's are in it.

    The Bible is known as a sacred and historical document due to the events that took place. It has been attacked by millions, but every argument that comes across the Bible (specifically, Jesus' resurrection) does not have any credible evidence to prove that something else indeed, happened beyond the Bible's documentation. It is also seen as the most credible religious document in the history of man, as it was written within the first generation of the events, therefore keeping within reach of the widely-accepted standard by scholars, who insist is takes approximately 2 generations for legend to develop.

    As you said, truths are not is single sections. While the Old Testament is controversial and still up in the air on some areas of credibility, there are some things involving it that the New Testament confirms and restates. The NT is a much more literal and reliable document. It claims that God is still at work in humanity, but not directly as his son was. It tells us we are "separated, but not isolated." After all, if evil will one day be destroyed, would you rely on mere chance?
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    Post by Zez on September 11th 2010, 11:46 am

    Independence76 wrote:I'm implying neutrality, by definition, is contradictory to what must exist. Neutrality not only implies that right and wrong exists, but it implies they are absolute. Through this, neutrality becomes an unachievable viewpoint, very similar with the idea of "Utopia." It also becomes impossible, as if such limits are absolutes, there are no "outside views."

    What if an absolute stated that there is always a third option? Then that absolute would be in of itself contradictory, as you have claimed neutrality to be. Seeing as either side can be proven wrong in one sense or another, can you at least define what these alleged absolutes are? There's no need to define neutrality at my end because it's a given that it's the midpoint between all extremes.

    Independence76 wrote:I'm talking about the mind's capacity, as stated earlier. While I cannot achieve full knowledge of all right and wrong, I believe absolutes do exist. If they do not, then this entire discussion is neither right or wrong. This is where contradiction sets in for neutrality.

    So you do believe you're right, and I'm wrong? Luke 18:9. Romans 3:10. Ecclesiastes 7:20. 1 Corinthians 8:2.


    Independence76 wrote:Take this statement:

    "We cannot know truth."

    This is self-refuting. The speaker is implying that his statement, is indeed, truth.

    There is no reason for you to bring this up. Did I not say shortly ago that I removed this statement from my list of maxims? I won't comment on this any further.

    Independence76 wrote:This is known as "Deism." Or, more specifically, the belief we were created by a God, but has abandoned us until the return. This is not completely definable nor solid as a complete worldview. It will eventually lead to Nihilism, the belief that all is meaningless and well as the existence of a God is wrong. The next step is Naturalism, which develops as a love for nature and the general physical world (materialism). And finally, this will lead to Existentialism. This is the current worldview that society uses on a massive scale (along with the fully contradictory philosophy of "Postmodernism"). It insists that reality or truth is relative, absolutes are undefinable or either do not exist, and that emotions are the fuel of the human being.

    So you think one philosophy will lead to another, will lead to another will lead to another? Is this not the result of one action being the result of the other? The antipode of fate? Besides, why would I, someone who has stated that he vehemently opposes emotions will eventually somehow believe that emotions are the basis of life? Your prediction seems so unlikely it's arbitrarily discreditable.

    Independence76 wrote:Direct contact is something of extreme rarity with a mathematical probability so low, the mind cannot comprehend how many 0's are in it.

    So you agree?

    Independence76 wrote:It is also seen as the most credible religious document in the history of man

    [Citation needed].

    Independence76 wrote:As you said, truths are not is single sections. While the Old Testament is controversial and still up in the air on some areas of credibility, there are some things involving it that the New Testament confirms and restates. The NT is a much more literal and reliable document. It claims that God is still at work in humanity, but not directly as his son was. It tells us we are "separated, but not isolated." After all, if evil will one day be destroyed, would you rely on mere chance?

    I agree with all of this except "but not directly as his son was". So, tell me, how do you think he continues to work in humanity at this moment, right now?
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    Post by Hayzer on September 11th 2010, 3:27 pm

    ...

    We can't use any religious reasons?

    I'm sorry, but my faith is what my entire worldview comes from, so it's involved regardless.

    1: God existed, exists, and will exist as a triune (three in one) God forever. (Genesis 1:1)
    2: God created the world as described in the book of Genesis, and as such the earth is 6000 years old. (Genesis 1)
    3: In it's original plan, the earth was perfect, but man screwed it up, bringing about the continual decay of the planet and Universe. (Genesis 3)
    4: Absolute morailty and Truth exist. (notice how "Truth" is capitalized)
    5: God is the source of our knowledge.
    6: Everyone knows in their heart of hearts the biblical God, but deny him because of the Curse.
    7: When God flooded the earth in Genesis 7, he split apart the continents and brought about continental drift.
    8: The descendants of Noah spread across the world after the events of the Tower of Babel, with Shem fathering Asia and the Americas, Ham fathering Africa, and Japeth fathering Europe.
    9: Yeshua (Jesus) was God in the flesh and the second part of the triune God (Elohim).
    10: Yeshua died for crimes he didn't commit, but in the process made a way for the fallen creation (Man) to return to God the Father.
    11: God will one day restore his fallen creation to him by saving those who repented and believed in Yeshua, and wiping out the rest and purging the earth from sin by fire. Then Heaven will be untied with earth and there will be eternal peace.

    Basically I believe in "The 7 C's of History."

    Creation (The creation of the heavens and the earth)
    Corruption (The Fall of Man and the spread of the Curse)
    Catastrophe (The Great Worldwide Flood)
    Confusion (The creation of languages and spreading of people around the globe)
    Christ (God came in flesh to save mankind from the Curse)
    Cross (God died in the flesh to free us from the Curse)
    Consummation (God will destroy those who oppose and reunite heaven with earth)
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    Post by Shade on September 11th 2010, 3:31 pm

    I believe in Scientology. This is because I think Science should be treated as a religion, seeing that we can see it works, and since we have proof of Science's reality, I prefer to worship it as a religion, as there is proof of its existence.
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    Post by Hayzer on September 11th 2010, 3:37 pm

    Sweet Mercy wrote:I believe in Scientology. This is because I think Science should be treated as a religion, seeing that we can see it works, and since we have proof of Science's reality, I prefer to worship it as a religion, as there is proof of its existence.

    What do you classify as science? For example, I believe science is the study of the way God uphols the Universe.

    The study of gravity, the universe, motion, etc. is all Observational Science, and can be directly proven.

    Evolution, the Big Bang, Creation, Old-Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, etc. is all Origins Science and can't be observed directly, therefore it can't be proven.

    Which of those do you classify as science?
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    Post by Shade on September 11th 2010, 3:44 pm

    Hayzer wrote:
    Sweet Mercy wrote:I believe in Scientology. This is because I think Science should be treated as a religion, seeing that we can see it works, and since we have proof of Science's reality, I prefer to worship it as a religion, as there is proof of its existence.

    What do you classify as science? For example, I believe science is the study of the way God uphols the Universe.

    The study of gravity, the universe, motion, etc. is all Observational Science, and can be directly proven.

    Evolution, the Big Bang, Creation, Old-Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, etc. is all Origins Science and can't be observed directly, therefore it can't be proven.

    Which of those do you classify as science?

    I classify the study of gravity, the universe, motion etc. the study of Science. But the difference between Science (and Scientology) and the Theistic religions is that Science is modified as technology advances. For instance, before the Big Bang theory there used to exist the Steady State theory. The Big Bang theory came about as Science progressed forward. Maybe sometime in the future we will discover that the Universe did not after all start by the big Bang. Science will adjust to that with a new theory. Theist religions never change. Whereas Scientology never changes. Also, Evolution (though it can't really be observed directly) can be observed and studied over time due to fossils, which determine how species have evolved, to adapt to their surroundings.
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    Post by Independence76 on September 11th 2010, 4:34 pm

    Sweet Mercy wrote:I believe in Scientology. This is because I think Science should be treated as a religion, seeing that we can see it works, and since we have proof of Science's reality, I prefer to worship it as a religion, as there is proof of its existence.

    Science is the study of physical information.

    Religion is the belief of non-physical/spiritual existence.
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    Post by Hayzer on September 11th 2010, 4:46 pm

    Sweet Mercy wrote:
    Hayzer wrote:

    What do you classify as science? For example, I believe science is the study of the way God uphols the Universe.

    The study of gravity, the universe, motion, etc. is all Observational Science, and can be directly proven.

    Evolution, the Big Bang, Creation, Old-Earth Creationism, Theistic Evolution, etc. is all Origins Science and can't be observed directly, therefore it can't be proven.

    Which of those do you classify as science?

    I classify the study of gravity, the universe, motion etc. the study of Science. But the difference between Science (and Scientology) and the Theistic religions is that Science is modified as technology advances. For instance, before the Big Bang theory there used to exist the Steady State theory. The Big Bang theory came about as Science progressed forward. Maybe sometime in the future we will discover that the Universe did not after all start by the big Bang. Science will adjust to that with a new theory. Theist religions never change. Whereas Scientology never changes. Also, Evolution (though it can't really be observed directly) can be observed and studied over time due to fossils, which determine how species have evolved, to adapt to their surroundings.

    Okay, now you're confusing me. Can it or can't it be observed? As a past event, we can't go back in time to study it. So it's not observational science. It is origins science. Anything in origins science must be accepted on faith. You also mentioned something about fossils. I could equally argue that the fossil record is just the scope of God's creativity.

    See that's my point. The difference between the two theories isn't evidence. Creationists and Evolutionists both have the same evidence. For instance, the fossil record. Creationists and Evolutionists both utilize the fossil record when making theories. Evolutionists believe it shows the history of life, with one fossil piggy-backing off the other (even though the "piggy-back" fossils don't even exist), and Creationists believe it to be the picture of all the animals wiped out during the catastrophic global flood. Evolutionists believe the common fossils in the fossil record shows how everything has a common ancestor, while Creationists believe the common fossils show a common Designer.

    So, the heart of the debate isn't about evidence. It's about worldviews. The Creationist (Biblical) worldview vs. the Evolutionist world view.

    So, if you would be so kind, could you please elaborate on your worldview. I know you're a scientologist, but I'm not very familiar with it. So, elaborate if you will.
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    Post by Shade on September 11th 2010, 5:07 pm

    Hayzer wrote:
    Sweet Mercy wrote:

    I classify the study of gravity, the universe, motion etc. the study of Science. But the difference between Science (and Scientology) and the Theistic religions is that Science is modified as technology advances. For instance, before the Big Bang theory there used to exist the Steady State theory. The Big Bang theory came about as Science progressed forward. Maybe sometime in the future we will discover that the Universe did not after all start by the big Bang. Science will adjust to that with a new theory. Theist religions never change. Whereas Scientology never changes. Also, Evolution (though it can't really be observed directly) can be observed and studied over time due to fossils, which determine how species have evolved, to adapt to their surroundings.

    Okay, now you're confusing me. Can it or can't it be observed? As a past event, we can't go back in time to study it. So it's not observational science. It is origins science. Anything in origins science must be accepted on faith. You also mentioned something about fossils. I could equally argue that the fossil record is just the scope of God's creativity.

    See that's my point. The difference between the two theories isn't evidence. Creationists and Evolutionists both have the same evidence. For instance, the fossil record. Creationists and Evolutionists both utilize the fossil record when making theories. Evolutionists believe it shows the history of life, with one fossil piggy-backing off the other (even though the "piggy-back" fossils don't even exist), and Creationists believe it to be the picture of all the animals wiped out during the catastrophic global flood. Evolutionists believe the common fossils in the fossil record shows how everything has a common ancestor, while Creationists believe the common fossils show a common Designer.

    So, the heart of the debate isn't about evidence. It's about worldviews. The Creationist (Biblical) worldview vs. the Evolutionist world view.

    So, if you would be so kind, could you please elaborate on your worldview. I know you're a scientologist, but I'm not very familiar with it. So, elaborate if you will.

    Well, scientology is basically all about the worship of science. We base our faith around science. It's just basically how the world works according to basic Chemistry, Biology and Physics.

    And, about the observation thing, what humanity has been doing so far is looking at fossils of the past to work out how we evolved and what we evolved from. We didn't have the technology at the time (and this was before the Evolution Theory came about) so humanity could only look at past records to check evolution. However, now we have the know-how, in the future and present we can continually monitor evolution. Hell, we can even influence it, to a degree. It's something called Selective Breeding. We can select creatures with certain traits/characteristics within the same species, and we can breed them. Selective Breeding wouldn't be possible according to Theism. Nor would cloning. But we can do both.

    And, about the flood thing.... there's only two instances of floods that I can recall. One is when comets rained down on the earth, creating the seas. But life on earth was at a cellular stage then, so there probably weren't any fossils at the time. Another was when the Ice Age ended. A lot of species became extinct then. But the melting of the Ice also had geographical effects, so you can see (if you look at the World Map) that Great Britain is an island now.

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    Post by Independence76 on September 11th 2010, 5:21 pm

    Sweet Mercy wrote:
    Well, scientology is basically all about the worship of science. We base our faith around science. It's just basically how the world works according to basic Chemistry, Biology and Physics.

    Science and faith do not go together. Faith is in the belief of knowable truths which cannot all be proven in physical existence, while science is the documentation of information of only physical matter and events. There is no faith involved in science.


    And, about the observation thing, what humanity has been doing so far is looking at fossils of the past to work out how we evolved and what we evolved from. We didn't have the technology at the time (and this was before the Evolution Theory came about) so humanity could only look at past records to check evolution. However, now we have the know-how, in the future and present we can continually monitor evolution. Hell, we can even influence it, to a degree. It's something called Selective Breeding. We can select creatures with certain traits/characteristics within the same species, and we can breed them. Selective Breeding wouldn't be possible according to Theism. Nor would cloning. But we can do both.

    Evolution is not 100% proven. We have proven events of micro-evolution(bacteria), but nothing on the scale of macro-evolution(apes to humans). We have a lot of evidence of macro-evolution, but still, the theory does not come full-circle. There is plenty of evidence missing to call it a "truth" once and for all. This is why I do not personally believe in the theory. It has yet to be explained on the standard of information science is designed for.


    The Bible implies it shouldn't be done, not that it couldn't be done.


    But, the existence of God can alone be argued in the beginning of the universe. Since we can all agree, regardless of religion, that the universe was caused by something, we can assume it was the beginning of time, material, nature, and the physical. So, logically, for whatever caused all of these things, mustn't the source have been timeless, immaterial, supernatural, and non-physical/spiritual?

    This alone implies, while it doesn't solve the evolution vs. creationism debate, that a being above ourselves created the heavens and the earth.
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    Post by sykog on September 12th 2010, 12:44 am

    Zez wrote:
    1.- Trust does not exist.
    Why you say that?
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    Post by Zez on September 12th 2010, 1:01 am

    sykog wrote:
    Zez wrote:1.- Trust does not exist.
    Why you say that?

    Why wouldn't I? There is always an element of doubt, and eventually trust will be broken. Any complete or true trust is false, there is always an ulterior motive or use, intentional or not.
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    Post by Shade on September 12th 2010, 9:51 am

    Independence76 wrote:
    Sweet Mercy wrote:
    Well, scientology is basically all about the worship of science. We base our faith around science. It's just basically how the world works according to basic Chemistry, Biology and Physics.

    Science and faith do not go together. Faith is in the belief of knowable truths which cannot all be proven in physical existence, while science is the documentation of information of only physical matter and events. There is no faith involved in science.


    And, about the observation thing, what humanity has been doing so far is looking at fossils of the past to work out how we evolved and what we evolved from. We didn't have the technology at the time (and this was before the Evolution Theory came about) so humanity could only look at past records to check evolution. However, now we have the know-how, in the future and present we can continually monitor evolution. Hell, we can even influence it, to a degree. It's something called Selective Breeding. We can select creatures with certain traits/characteristics within the same species, and we can breed them. Selective Breeding wouldn't be possible according to Theism. Nor would cloning. But we can do both.

    Evolution is not 100% proven. We have proven events of micro-evolution(bacteria), but nothing on the scale of macro-evolution(apes to humans). We have a lot of evidence of macro-evolution, but still, the theory does not come full-circle. There is plenty of evidence missing to call it a "truth" once and for all. This is why I do not personally believe in the theory. It has yet to be explained on the standard of information science is designed for.


    The Bible implies it shouldn't be done, not that it couldn't be done.


    But, the existence of God can alone be argued in the beginning of the universe. Since we can all agree, regardless of religion, that the universe was caused by something, we can assume it was the beginning of time, material, nature, and the physical. So, logically, for whatever caused all of these things, mustn't the source have been timeless, immaterial, supernatural, and non-physical/spiritual?

    This alone implies, while it doesn't solve the evolution vs. creationism debate, that a being above ourselves created the heavens and the earth.

    What's this being, then? Is it sentient? Does it have the ability to reason and think? So far, every religion I've ever come across portrays God as a sentient being, able to reason and think.
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    Post by Super Racer Z on September 12th 2010, 10:29 am

    Independence76 wrote:

    But, the existence of God can alone be argued in the beginning of the universe. Since we can all agree, regardless of religion, that the universe was caused by something, we can assume it was the beginning of time, material, nature, and the physical. So, logically, for whatever caused all of these things, mustn't the source have been timeless, immaterial, supernatural, and non-physical/spiritual?

    This alone implies, while it doesn't solve the evolution vs. creationism debate, that a being above ourselves created the heavens and the earth.

    But what created the timeless, immaterial, supernatural, and non-physical/spiritual being? Until there's an answer for that, I believe it cannot be said with certainty that a supreme being exists. This is likely impossible because the scope of human imagination is unable to comprehend what existed before nothing existed. That is why almost all, if not all theories involving the creation of the universe involve something that had to have come before it in order for the universe to exist.


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    Post by Hayzer on September 12th 2010, 1:35 pm

    Sweet Mercy wrote:Well, scientology is basically all about the worship of science. We base our faith around science. It's just basically how the world works according to basic Chemistry, Biology and Physics.

    Okay, but Chemistry, Biology, and Physics are all observable. That's observational science. Don't confuse Evolution with Biology. Biology is the study of how animals interact, not how they came to be. That would be Evolution.

    And, about the observation thing, what humanity has been doing so far is looking at fossils of the past to work out how we evolved and what we evolved from. We didn't have the technology at the time (and this was before the Evolution Theory came about) so humanity could only look at past records to check evolution. However, now we have the know-how, in the future and present we can continually monitor evolution. Hell, we can even influence it, to a degree.

    No. We aren't observing fossils to see how animals formed in the past. We are observing fossils. That's it. The scientist observing the fossils will conjure up an interpretation, but the evidence doesn't automatically say that Evolution is true. The fossils themselves are the evidence. The Evolutionary purpose behind them is the interpretation. The evidence doesn't speak for itself. This is the Fallacy of Reification. Material objects can't voice what happened to them directly. We have to interpret them, and the interpretations come from the interpreter's worldview. Essentially what you're saying is, "Evolution is true because Evolution is true." That's a circular argument, also called the Fallacy of Begging the Question. Like I said before (something you seemed to ignore), the debate isn't about the evidence. The debate is about the worldviews.

    It's something called Selective Breeding. We can select creatures with certain traits/characteristics within the same species, and we can breed them. Selective Breeding wouldn't be possible according to Theism.

    Umm...it's perfectly possible with the Creationist worldview. You breed a lion and a tiger and you get a liger. I'm not sure what you mean by "It's not possible according to Theism." Please clarify.

    Nor would cloning. But we can do both.


    Cloning animals, yes. But have we ever succeeded with a human? Nope.

    And, about the flood thing.... there's only two instances of floods that I can recall.

    You're already assuming that your worldview is true in this argument. You're trying to interpret my worldview based on yours and that doesn't work. For instance, in case you didn't know, the Creationist worldview has a completely different timeline than yours. Evolution's is so ungodly, I don't even remember it, but let me lay out the timeline of my worldview.

    God(Inf.)--Creation(0 AM)--The Great Flood(1656-1657 AM)--Ice Age(1657--???? AM)--Abraham(c.a. 2000 AM)--Christ(c.a.4000 AM)--Modern Day(c.a.6000 AM)--Tribulation--New Heaven & New Earth

    In short, I believe the earth is 6000 years old.

    One is when comets rained down on the earth, creating the seas. But life on earth was at a cellular stage then, so there probably weren't any fossils at the time. Another was when the Ice Age ended. A lot of species became extinct then. But the melting of the Ice also had geographical effects, so you can see (if you look at the World Map) that Great Britain is an island now.

    I'm well aware of an Ice Age. The biblical timescale for the Ice Age is anywhere from after Noah to Christ. The low sea levels would allow the descendants of Shem to traverse across Beringia and get to the Americas.

    Again, we're talking about worldviews. So mine is completely different from yours.


    Last edited by Hayzer on September 12th 2010, 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Independence76

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    Post by Independence76 on September 12th 2010, 1:46 pm

    Super Racer Z wrote:
    But what created the timeless, immaterial, supernatural, and non-physical/spiritual being? Until there's an answer for that, I believe it cannot be said with certainty that a supreme being exists. This is likely impossible because the scope of human imagination is unable to comprehend what existed before nothing existed. That is why almost all, if not all theories involving the creation of the universe involve something that had to have come before it in order for the universe to exist.

    "Timeless" means the being is eternal, without beginning or ending.
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    Post by Guest on September 12th 2010, 2:07 pm

    Zez wrote:Excluding any religious adherence explain some of your creeds, or maxims, you live by that represent your school of thought.
    This thread isn't supposed to be full of inane religious debate. Kindly take it outside, guys.
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    Post by Yioibon on September 12th 2010, 4:27 pm

    My life philosophy is snort more oxy. It all matters on how much.

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    Post by Gamma The Great on September 22nd 2010, 9:06 pm

    I live by one. Numbers.
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    Post by Reina Watt on November 7th 2010, 9:42 pm

    The same thing that goes into my writing - What is, is, crying and whining about it solves nothing.
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    Post by Hushimo on September 5th 2011, 6:54 pm

    Yioibon wrote:My life philosophy is snort more oxy. It all matters on how much.

    Sounds like the life.

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