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    The "Official" Sonic Canon???

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    Post by Jmh on February 19th 2011, 5:41 pm

    For those who don't know, I made a topic on the SEGA of America forums regarding whether or not Sonic Chronicles was canon. Here it is: http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?355146-Do-you-consider-Sonic-Chronicles-to-be-canon


    The interesting part is when an actual Admin came in and said some interesting things regarding the entire Sonic Timeline and canon. I will put the posts in quotes below so you don't have to go looking yourself:

    Spoiler:
    Sonic Chronicles is not canon.

    Or cannon.
    Or Ganon.
    Or Gammon.
    Or Jimmy Fallon.

    We've already had this on Bumbleking. "I want someone from SOJ or Bioware otherwise its not real" I've got news for you, good luck finding either on here or on Bumbleking. If SOE/A word isn't good enough for you you're REALLY in the wrong forum! :)

    Now you can either take the word of the Community Manager who has worked on ever single Sonic related game since Rush Adventure, who knows the standpoint on Chronicles from Japan, has discussed such matters with Sonic Team and coincidentally, has been the only one to actually address this with you guys orrr you can cling on to the belief that the events of Chronicles are somehow now written in stone for all things Sonic.

    Its highly likely some points will bleed in to canon, but the only "events" that should realistically be considered current game series canon and defining the story of Sonic's world are those from the main thread of consoles titles post-Sonic Adventure. Even then some of those events that happened within have been retconed over the years to varying degrees.

    So to my knowledge the following are concrete as having "happened".

    - ARK Incident (50 Years Ago)
    - {Events Of Sonic 1-3&K in some form}
    - Station Square Incident, Unleashing of Perfect Chaos (SA1)
    - Awakening Of Shadow, Fall Of ARK (SA2)
    - Return of Metal Sonic and the overthrow of Eggman (Heroes)
    - Coming Of The Black Comet and The Black Arms War (ShTH)
    - The shattering of the world / Coming of Dark/Light Gaia. (Unleashed)
    - The Encounter With The Wisps (Colours)

    I hope I've not left anything out... the might change their minds in time. Now, i'm not counting Sonic 4 in this currently as obviously we don't know the full story with that as yet, I think you can probably pencil it in if you like after S&K in that list. Storybook - No. M&S - No. Rush/Rush Adv - You can't really say it is as its the whole future/alternate dimension thing which has already proven to be in flux. Sonic 06 - The events of the game prevented it from ever happening in the first place. Rivals - arguably R2 might be, but you've got the whole future thing with Silver again. Everything I've heard tells me no to both however.

    Of course to me I'm quite open to the fact that there are multiple-continuities Original Mobius Story/Modern Earth Continuity/Fleetway/Archie/SatAM/Underground/Sonic X/etc and try not to get hung up on such details about which is the "true" one...

    Yup Shadow definately happened, or should I say MOST of Shadow happened; I think a few details might have got tweaked over time but we're safe to assume Westopolis bit the dust for instance. Certainly Shadow coming to terms with his past via conflict with Black Doom occurred as that has shaped Shadow's current character - otherwise he wouldn't be a GUN agent by the time Sonic 06 rolled around or indeed Chronicles which was what this thread was all about in the first place.

    Cero: Advance - No, at least not in events although some details have again bled over. Vanilla/Cream for instance. The handheld games in general even Sonic Colours DS as the Wii and DS stories can't BOTH have happened should all be considered non-canon. The only one that is I believe the one I forgot and that you mentioned, Sonic Battle. If that is not canon its as close as you can get without being. CD was intended to be covered in that class between S1-S3&K.

    And you'd be right. I think I ended up editing my post which handled most of your resultant response Pur-Rulz, sorry about that.

    Knuckles Chaotix is an odd one because it is by definition somewhat seperate, Heroes and the games since didn't exactly play on the fact Knuckles knew the Chaotix and they themselves are very different from their initial appearances. Its never really come up in discussion so I doubt it is considered modern canon, if anything for the very reason I just said regarding the lack of familiarity in Heroes.



    I think that's enough indepth analysis of Sonic for today!!! X_x

    Well you get one more.



    Straaaaange ISN'T IT? The future is not set in stone, as a result of course Silver's met Sonic for the first time twice. It is an intersting discussion point so yeah do that. Bah this requires a diagram or something! I'll have to see if I can do one at some point...

    Riders: Riders probably is considered canon, but let us say conditionally. I find it unlikely that the events of Riders will ever be a defining factor on the story of whatever main branch story game happens in the future which is why its not listed. Otherwise whenever Sonic had come across big chasms and things post Riders 1 he'd've gone "wait if I just use my Extreme Gear I can do this thing a heck of a lot easier".


    Actually before I go, TIMELINE EDIT:

    -Massacre Of The Knuckles Tribe / Sealing Of Chaos & Tikal (X Years Ago)
    - ARK Incident (50 Years Ago)

    So, your thoughts?
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    Post by Schismatist on February 19th 2011, 6:22 pm

    Considering the fact that the next few Sonic games will probably be heading towards the Sonic Colors route in terms of story, I don't think it matters. That was a very nice read though.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 19th 2011, 6:50 pm

    I think the idea of a "Sonic canon" is no longer applicable. The Sonic Canon died after Sonic Adventure 2.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 20th 2011, 7:07 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:I think the idea of a "Sonic canon" is no longer applicable. The Sonic Canon died after Sonic Adventure 2.
    So far by every single post I've seen by you, pretty much everything died after Adventure 2.
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    Post by Jmh on February 20th 2011, 7:18 pm

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:I think the idea of a "Sonic canon" is no longer applicable. The Sonic Canon died after Sonic Adventure 2.
    So far by every single post I've seen by you, pretty much everything died after Adventure 2.
    I bet he thinks the franchise died after SA2 as well.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 20th 2011, 7:20 pm

    Jmh wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    So far by every single post I've seen by you, pretty much everything died after Adventure 2.
    I bet he thinks the franchise died after SA2 as well.
    Well you know the Sonic Fanbase, never ceases to surprise us.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 20th 2011, 9:52 pm

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:I think the idea of a "Sonic canon" is no longer applicable. The Sonic Canon died after Sonic Adventure 2.
    So far by every single post I've seen by you, pretty much everything died after Adventure 2.
    Not entirely true. Non-canon does not mean dead, especially when you put spinoff games into account. I know I have my theories. But let me explain this one. By the way, I was only talking of console game.

    I think the Rush series could be considered canon (I forgot about those). They are greater than Sonic 4 and show the modern Sonic in a modern world (unlike Sonic 4). Plus, they are fun games made well.

    The one game after SA2 that could be considered canon is Sonic 06. While it is likely a canon game, I don't want to count it as one. Reasons are that it was a horrible game which harmed the franchise. Second, from what people tell me, it was not supposed to happen in the first place. And the final reason it isn't canon is that Shadow is in it after he died in SA2.

    Sonic Unleashed- no. Werehogs aren't canon. Enough said. The formula changed too drastically to even consider it a worthy Sonic game. A game on its own, it's pretty good, but I don't associate Sonic as a werehog being canon.

    Storybook series isn't the main series (easy enough). Although these games look pretty cool.

    Chronicles isn't a main game either.

    Sonic 4: green eyed Sonic in a retro game? A giant no-no. This one kills the canon as much as Shadow's revival does. A whole slew of original Sonic games was deemed questionable because of the mixed up time frame of this game.

    Any game containing Sonic and Mario together is not canon and untrue to the franchise.

    Colors I've never played, but seeing how the gameplay is based off 2D/3D elements, I don't see it canon in relation to the originals and 3D games. Nonetheless, these 2D/3D games may start to become the new canon because Sonic Team seems to be concentrating on making them (Unleashed and Colors). So if there are more games in the future like Colors, I'd consider adding it to the 2010+ canon era.

    Let me make a small note in saying that if it isn't a canon game, it does not mean it's a bad game. In many cases it does, but this isn't true for all. I liked Chronicles, but it just isn't canon.

    So my idea of games being canon or not has only somewhat to do with my Shadow theory judging by the current games. Nonetheless, Shadow is still a determiner in many cases. If he is thrown into a canon game, IMO it is no longer canon unless that Shadow is a pronounced fake. This does not count for games in which Shadow is not in (such as Unleashed, Colors [which I'm assuming he's not in but I really don't know], Rush, or Sonic 4). Putting Shadow in a spinoff game would be fine with me, because spinoffs aren't canon.

    In a nutshell, there are several reasons how I consider games canon or non-canon, not just that one Shadow theory.

    Generally though, most "canon" games tend to feature Shadow today, so they are instantly non-canon in my book. Also, recent history has changed what we look for in Sonic games, so there is not a true canon.

    Recent aesthetics (Shadow's death and green eyed Sonic in retro game) have destroyed the former and future games as canons. Sonic must now have green eyes or he is aesthetically nonexistent with the ol' brown eyes. That history was erased with Sonic 4.

    Therefore, due to unreal events and changes, the canon's roots are gone. When you erase history, you erase the subject and therefore any Sonic game is subjective to be non-canon. This is how I define my canon. Yours could be different though.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 20th 2011, 10:23 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    So far by every single post I've seen by you, pretty much everything died after Adventure 2.
    Not entirely true. Non-canon does not mean dead, especially when you put spinoff games into account. I know I have my theories. But let me explain this one. By the way, I was only talking of console game.

    I think the Rush series could be considered canon (I forgot about those). They are greater than Sonic 4 and show the modern Sonic in a modern world (unlike Sonic 4). Plus, they are fun games made well.

    The one game after SA2 that could be considered canon is Sonic 06. While it is likely a canon game, I don't want to count it as one. Reasons are that it was a horrible game which harmed the franchise. Second, from what people tell me, it was not supposed to happen in the first place. And the final reason it isn't canon is that Shadow is in it after he died in SA2.

    Sonic Unleashed- no. Werehogs aren't canon. Enough said. The formula changed too drastically to even consider it a worthy Sonic game. A game on its own, it's pretty good, but I don't associate Sonic as a werehog being canon.

    Storybook series isn't the main series (easy enough). Although these games look pretty cool.

    Chronicles isn't a main game either.

    Sonic 4: green eyed Sonic in a retro game? A giant no-no. This one kills the canon as much as Shadow's revival does. A whole slew of original Sonic games was deemed questionable because of the mixed up time frame of this game.

    Any game containing Sonic and Mario together is not canon and untrue to the franchise.

    Colors I've never played, but seeing how the gameplay is based off 2D/3D elements, I don't see it canon in relation to the originals and 3D games. Nonetheless, these 2D/3D games may start to become the new canon because Sonic Team seems to be concentrating on making them (Unleashed and Colors). So if there are more games in the future like Colors, I'd consider adding it to the 2010+ canon era.

    Let me make a small note in saying that if it isn't a canon game, it does not mean it's a bad game. In many cases it does, but this isn't true for all. I liked Chronicles, but it just isn't canon.

    So my idea of games being canon or not has only somewhat to do with my Shadow theory judging by the current games. Nonetheless, Shadow is still a determiner in many cases. If he is thrown into a canon game, IMO it is no longer canon unless that Shadow is a pronounced fake. This does not count for games in which Shadow is not in (such as Unleashed, Colors [which I'm assuming he's not in but I really don't know], Rush, or Sonic 4). Putting Shadow in a spinoff game would be fine with me, because spinoffs aren't canon.

    In a nutshell, there are several reasons how I consider games canon or non-canon, not just that one Shadow theory.

    Generally though, most "canon" games tend to feature Shadow today, so they are instantly non-canon in my book. Also, recent history has changed what we look for in Sonic games, so there is not a true canon.

    Recent aesthetics (Shadow's death and green eyed Sonic in retro game) have destroyed the former and future games as canons. Sonic must now have green eyes or he is aesthetically nonexistent with the ol' brown eyes. That history was erased with Sonic 4.

    Therefore, due to unreal events and changes, the canon's roots are gone. When you erase history, you erase the subject and therefore any Sonic game is subjective to be non-canon. This is how I define my canon. Yours could be different though.

    Okay, so anything bad to you isn't canon, so if we mix your logic with my opinions that means Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed never happened.
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    Post by Sonowske on February 20th 2011, 10:30 pm

    Does anyone honestly care anymore about a true Sonic canon? I mean honestly, I can see three different timelines in the franchise right now. The games have deviated so far from eachother that it's hard to tell what is the official storyline of Sonic.

    I know that the Archie aren't so great, but at least they have a consistant storyline, and it's been that way for 18 years.
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    Post by DaBlueShadow on February 20th 2011, 11:09 pm

    Think of it more as the adventures of Sonic vs Eggman as canon wise as Sega doesn't want a deep or explained continuum as Sonic 06 messed it up
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    Post by NeoMetalSonic on February 21st 2011, 3:54 am

    Sonic CD comes after 2 in the timeline
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    Post by Schismatist on February 21st 2011, 12:19 pm

    NeoMetalSonic wrote:Sonic CD comes after 2 in the timeline
    Dude, that's way too big of a spoiler, you might get yourself banned if you post that stuff.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 21st 2011, 2:07 pm

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Not entirely true. Non-canon does not mean dead, especially when you put spinoff games into account. I know I have my theories. But let me explain this one. By the way, I was only talking of console game.

    I think the Rush series could be considered canon (I forgot about those). They are greater than Sonic 4 and show the modern Sonic in a modern world (unlike Sonic 4). Plus, they are fun games made well.

    The one game after SA2 that could be considered canon is Sonic 06. While it is likely a canon game, I don't want to count it as one. Reasons are that it was a horrible game which harmed the franchise. Second, from what people tell me, it was not supposed to happen in the first place. And the final reason it isn't canon is that Shadow is in it after he died in SA2.

    Sonic Unleashed- no. Werehogs aren't canon. Enough said. The formula changed too drastically to even consider it a worthy Sonic game. A game on its own, it's pretty good, but I don't associate Sonic as a werehog being canon.

    Storybook series isn't the main series (easy enough). Although these games look pretty cool.

    Chronicles isn't a main game either.

    Sonic 4: green eyed Sonic in a retro game? A giant no-no. This one kills the canon as much as Shadow's revival does. A whole slew of original Sonic games was deemed questionable because of the mixed up time frame of this game.

    Any game containing Sonic and Mario together is not canon and untrue to the franchise.

    Colors I've never played, but seeing how the gameplay is based off 2D/3D elements, I don't see it canon in relation to the originals and 3D games. Nonetheless, these 2D/3D games may start to become the new canon because Sonic Team seems to be concentrating on making them (Unleashed and Colors). So if there are more games in the future like Colors, I'd consider adding it to the 2010+ canon era.

    Let me make a small note in saying that if it isn't a canon game, it does not mean it's a bad game. In many cases it does, but this isn't true for all. I liked Chronicles, but it just isn't canon.

    So my idea of games being canon or not has only somewhat to do with my Shadow theory judging by the current games. Nonetheless, Shadow is still a determiner in many cases. If he is thrown into a canon game, IMO it is no longer canon unless that Shadow is a pronounced fake. This does not count for games in which Shadow is not in (such as Unleashed, Colors [which I'm assuming he's not in but I really don't know], Rush, or Sonic 4). Putting Shadow in a spinoff game would be fine with me, because spinoffs aren't canon.

    In a nutshell, there are several reasons how I consider games canon or non-canon, not just that one Shadow theory.

    Generally though, most "canon" games tend to feature Shadow today, so they are instantly non-canon in my book. Also, recent history has changed what we look for in Sonic games, so there is not a true canon.

    Recent aesthetics (Shadow's death and green eyed Sonic in retro game) have destroyed the former and future games as canons. Sonic must now have green eyes or he is aesthetically nonexistent with the ol' brown eyes. That history was erased with Sonic 4.

    Therefore, due to unreal events and changes, the canon's roots are gone. When you erase history, you erase the subject and therefore any Sonic game is subjective to be non-canon. This is how I define my canon. Yours could be different though.

    Okay, so anything bad to you isn't canon, so if we mix your logic with my opinions that means Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed never happened.

    I don't understand what you are saying...

    No game accurately happened before Sonic Adventure. You can thank Sonic 4 for that.

    But does the idea of a "canon" really apply here? The definition of canon is here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/canon

    No series is truly canon because Sega keeps changing its rules and guidelines for newer games. A canon is constant; seeing as Sonic changes, it is no longer a canon.

    I agree with Sonowske 100% in terms of the games. As for the Archie series though, I've never found it consistent at all (but that's getting off-topic). Nonetheless, no true Sonic game is canon anymore.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 21st 2011, 2:14 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:

    Okay, so anything bad to you isn't canon, so if we mix your logic with my opinions that means Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic Unleashed never happened.

    I don't understand what you are saying...

    No game accurately happened before Sonic Adventure. You can thank Sonic 4 for that.

    But does the idea of a "canon" really apply here? The definition of canon is here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/canon

    No series is truly canon because Sega keeps changing its rules and guidelines for newer games.

    I agree with Sonowske 100% in terms of the games. As for the Archie series though, I've never found it consistent at all (but that's getting off-topic). Nonetheless, no true Sonic game is canon anymore.
    Okay, if no game is canon then why does this matter, at all? I think it's sort of a fact that canon/timeline/(Maybe even story at times) does not matter in Sonic games.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 21st 2011, 2:17 pm

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:

    I don't understand what you are saying...

    No game accurately happened before Sonic Adventure. You can thank Sonic 4 for that.

    But does the idea of a "canon" really apply here? The definition of canon is here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/canon

    No series is truly canon because Sega keeps changing its rules and guidelines for newer games.

    I agree with Sonowske 100% in terms of the games. As for the Archie series though, I've never found it consistent at all (but that's getting off-topic). Nonetheless, no true Sonic game is canon anymore.
    Okay, if no game is canon then why does this matter, at all? I think it's sort of a fact that canon/timeline/(Maybe even story at times) does not matter in Sonic games.
    I can't disagree with that, you're correct.

    The argument I'm trying to make is that Sonic Team has not made their games in a chronological timeline. Some new traits appear in old games (Sonic 4) and this is what destroys whatever canon they may have had in the first place. Also, it ruins the consistency in the series IMO. In certain series and with certain characters, a timeline does matter, and Sonic Team has failed to even acknowledge this.
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    Post by Jmh on February 21st 2011, 7:01 pm

    Canon means if a game actually contributes to the overall storyline and timeline. In other words if it actually happened in the timeline. I also agree Sonic games aren't about the story, but they still have one (Just like Mario), as weak as they are.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 21st 2011, 7:24 pm

    Jmh wrote:Canon means if a game actually contributes to the overall storyline and timeline. In other words if it actually happened in the timeline. I also agree Sonic games aren't about the story, but they still have one (Just like Mario), as weak as they are.
    That is very true. I live for good Sonic stories though.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 22nd 2011, 12:09 am

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Jmh wrote:Canon means if a game actually contributes to the overall storyline and timeline. In other words if it actually happened in the timeline. I also agree Sonic games aren't about the story, but they still have one (Just like Mario), as weak as they are.
    That is very true. I live for good Sonic stories though.
    Take the game Dead Space and put Sonic character's heads over the main character's heads.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 22nd 2011, 12:18 am

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    That is very true. I live for good Sonic stories though.
    Take the game Dead Space and put Sonic character's heads over the main character's heads.
    The "Official" Sonic Canon???  Deadspaceuu
    I swear, I had too good of a time making this.
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    Post by Jmh on February 22nd 2011, 1:33 am

    Schismatist wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    Take the game Dead Space and put Sonic character's heads over the main character's heads.
    The "Official" Sonic Canon???  Deadspaceuu
    I swear, I had too good of a time making this.
    His eyes are green though.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 22nd 2011, 1:40 am

    Jmh wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    The "Official" Sonic Canon???  Deadspaceuu
    I swear, I had too good of a time making this.
    His eyes are green though.
    AAAAHHHHHHH THE CONTINUITY IS RUINED I HAVE NO REASON TO LIVE!!!!11111
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 22nd 2011, 7:44 am

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    That is very true. I live for good Sonic stories though.
    Take the game Dead Space and put Sonic character's heads over the main character's heads.
    I don't care for games like Dead Space. It has too much unnecessary violence and blood.

    The green eyes is okay so long as it is the new era Sonic and not the old, and not a game that crosses this boundary like Sonic 4.
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    Post by Schismatist on February 22nd 2011, 9:51 am

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    Take the game Dead Space and put Sonic character's heads over the main character's heads.
    I don't care for games like Dead Space. It has too much unnecessary violence and blood.

    The green eyes is okay so long as it is the new era Sonic and not the old, and not a game that crosses this boundary like Sonic 4.
    A change in art style doesn't have anything to do with story.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 22nd 2011, 4:00 pm

    Schismatist wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    I don't care for games like Dead Space. It has too much unnecessary violence and blood.

    The green eyes is okay so long as it is the new era Sonic and not the old, and not a game that crosses this boundary like Sonic 4.
    A change in art style doesn't have anything to do with story.
    I disagree here. Aesthetics do matter. A green eyed Sonic from Adventure on makes sense, but putting a green-eyed Sonic in what is supposed to be a classic game ruins the whole idea of the classic. A green eyed Sonic isn't classic.

    So in certain cases, art does matter, at least in my book.
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    Post by Jmh on February 22nd 2011, 4:34 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Schismatist wrote:
    A change in art style doesn't have anything to do with story.
    I disagree here. Aesthetics do matter. A green eyed Sonic from Adventure on makes sense, but putting a green-eyed Sonic in what is supposed to be a classic game ruins the whole idea of the classic. A green eyed Sonic isn't classic.

    So in certain cases, art does matter, at least in my book.
    It's the same character though.

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