Who among you...

...has faith in Sega and Sonic team anymore? Let's look at the major titles since SA2, where everyone seems to agree is where things went downhill:

Heroes: No story whatsoever, and you had to play the same levels four times over to actually complete the game. ir easy even with Chaotix, who were supposed to be the hardest team to play as, (Or maybe it was Dark, but it was ir easy with them as well.) except for getting the chaos emeralds, which didn't really last that long and wasn't really that much of a challenge either.

Shadow: Very mediocre gameplay, horrible controls, especially for the vehicles, (though if you're an extreme hardcore expert, you could make it seem like the controls are at the level of "meh.") horrible story, (Gerald, a person smart enough to make the ARK and all kinds of crazy s with 1950's technology and infrastructure, couldn't figure out that Doom might have ill intentions?) and why the hell is everyone saying "damn" like children who've just learned the word?

Sonic '06: "WHY DEAR GOD WHY!?" was uttered by all but the most hardcore (read: retarded) fanboys and girls. The most stupid plot I've seen in a great while, (And I have seen some horrible, horrible plots.) controls worse than Shadow, and JESUS fg CHRIST ON A POGO STICK ON A UNICYCLE ON THE EGG CARRIER, SONIC AND ELISE? WHY DEAR GOD WHY MY EYES THE PAIN IT BURNS IT BURNS! SO MANY HORRIBLE FANFICTIONS, MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP! They didn't even do anything, anything at all, in the six months between the 360 release and the PS3 release besides changing the button instructions. (Or was it PS2? I can't remember, because it's utterly horrible and I blocked all things relating to it from my memory, but I'd think it was the PS3.) Well, at least this horror of bad gameplay, bad fiction, and HOLY f BESTIALITY was erased from existence. Thank Christ.

Secret Rings: Boring as all hell, poorly done cutscenes, (I can mildly understand a more book-like look, seeing as it's in an actual book, but it just looks so boring.) and why do I have to hold a button to stop Sonic?

Rush & Rush adventure: Original was mediocre, second was of even lesser quality, and the material system was just a way to pad the game by making you play through the same exact levels multiple times. The little Australian raccoon or whatever she was was the most annoying Sonic character of all time. Seriously, at least Cream is courteous. Also, they can't keep Blaze's backstory straight. That or they don't care. Either way it's a bad sign. At least they're being mildly different with their endgame plot twist, and by that I mean that instead of making some crappy new villain come practically out of nowhere with some crappy disjointed plot twist, they make Eggman (and his alt-reality/from the future/whatever counterpart, Eggman Nega) come practically out of nowhere with some crappy disjointed plot twist with Metal Gears--I mean, Transformers--I mean, Gundams--I mean, original large machines.

Unleashed & Black Knight: Holy s, games that are actually good? Not quite. They're a fair improvement over previous attempts, but they're still all around mediocre.

Really, watching Sega and Sonic team work together to make Sonic games at this point is like watching a horror movie: you're just sitting there, saying to yourself, "Oh, something good actually happened to the protagonists? I didn't expect that. Now, I wonder what horrible thing is going to happen to make their lives miserable and scar them forever, if they even survive it?"

No arguement here

I do. Heroes was great, the Rushes, were good, and so was Secret Rings. Unleashed wasn't bad either.

Heroes was fine if only just for a simple romp, I really like Rush (haven't got around to Rush Adventure yet), Secret Rings was a rental more or less (not worth buying but then again not worth passing), Unleashed was fine if not for a few misgivings (even I'm willing to forgive a game here and there) and I won't be caught anywhere near Shadow, '06 or Black Knight. Also, were the Olympic games done by Sonic Team?

Knowing game development as I do, a studio would need to evaluate its own performance, find out what worked and what did not work, and really put the effort into games which run up budgets of millions of dollars and months if not years' worth of manpower. Those aren't resources that one would use simply on a whim. Sonic Team is no different, especially considering that most of the team was completely replaced from within with new talent ever since BK. Any studio can have a turnaround performance, it just takes strategy, risk, and a lot of imagination.

Mly wrote:Gerald, a person smart enough to make the ARK and all kinds of crazy s with 1950's technology and infrastructure, couldn't figure out that Doom might have ill intentions?

Of course he figured out Doom's intentions. That's why he built the Eclipse Cannon.

I though some of the newer games were fairly decent.

@sykog: Heroes was mediocre at best. If you just play through it on one story, maybe get the chaos emeralds, then it's okay. But by the end it's just tedious and boring. The last story's ridiculous and not worth it. The story is also nonexistent, except for "oh noes, we must defeat Eggman because he's up to schemes that aren't even explained, but oh wait, it's actually Metal Sonic, disguised as Eggman, and different looking, and he absorbed all our data to make him an uber-powerful Megazord thing that can fly, exclamation mark one one."

@TFF: Oh. I can't really remember. All I did with that game was play a few levels, then sell it to a shameless Sonic fanboy after the local stores sold out for quadruple the price I bought it for when my tolerance for Shadow saying damn every half-second and failing utterly at all forms of movement. Though, I did watch an LP once when I was bored.

@CO: Decent. Passing. That's about the best most people can say of the recent Sonic games.

@Phantom: I'm well aware of this. But until recently, they've hardly even been putting forth an effort. At least now they're trying. But with the luck of Sega/Sonic Team, somebody will probably do something stupid and they'll have crap games for a while again.

Spoilers!!!

I didn't really like Shadow the Hedgehogs story because at the end they make it seem like Gerald was a good guy which totally contradicts SA2's ending.

For once Mly, I must agree with your statement partially, but I still have all faith than anything after 1993 was pure rubbish.

@Cloud: Not really. It's just implied (They can't outright say it or even make it that obvious, seeing as it's a children's game, and even Shadow was E10.) that Gerald went insane from being tortured by GUN. Shadow was more like a scenario from that episode of Futurama where everyone asked the what if machine a what if question, anyway. It's just a tale of interest.

@i76: What, what happened in '93?

Mly wrote:
@i76: What, what happened in '93?

Sonic 3.

The last "good" Sonic game.

Mly wrote:@sykog: Heroes was mediocre at best. If you just play through it on one story, maybe get the chaos emeralds, then it's okay. But by the end it's just tedious and boring. The last story's ridiculous and not worth it. The story is also nonexistent, except for "oh noes, we must defeat Eggman because he's up to schemes that aren't even explained, but oh wait, it's actually Metal Sonic, disguised as Eggman, and different looking, and he absorbed all our data to make him an uber-powerful Megazord thing that can fly, exclamation mark one one."

Well, I like it. I admit the story sucked though.

@i76: You're just one of the old-schoolers who want the series to have no progression whatsoever, good or bad. s like that leads to Megaman 9, and that makes me a sad panda...human...dog-person...machine...whatever.

Mly wrote:@Cloud: Not really. It's just implied (They can't outright say it or even make it that obvious, seeing as it's a children's game, and even Shadow was E10.) that Gerald went insane from being tortured by GUN. Shadow was more like a scenario from that episode of Futurama where everyone asked the what if machine a what if question, anyway. It's just a tale of interest.

Yeah, I suppose you're right.

Heroes was a good game. When you realize that the gameplay actually works pretty well and it's fun to go through the levels then yes. You might need to explain more on why it was bad though. Saying it had essentionally no story is incorrect. It was a very low pitch and under developed storyline but the overall plot was a pretty good concept. The concept of course being another one of Eggman's returns and Metal Sonic's silent but deadly take over of the situation. If the cutscenes and lines weren't done the way they were it would felt like something was there. Of course, not having a story really isn't that big of an element to pan a game on in the first place considering the 2-D Sonic games kinda did what Heroes did in this situation. They had a story but it wasn't in-depth. Heroes was a call back to the 2-D games with a mix of the newer elements. That 's the reason the story and levels are set up the way they are.

Why you have to go through them four times? I don't know but that didn't really bother me considering that each time we were playing g as different characters on a different set of difficulty (with Team Dark being the hardest). How hard the game was is incredibly hard to get out as fact as each person's experience varies. Team Dark was incredibly hard to get through the first time around for me. Another reason going through four times didn't bother me was because ... well four isn't that big of a number. I mean odds are you were going to play through all the levels again even if it only had been 1 team. Afterward that's usually what people tend to do, especially when trying to gather emblems.

Unleashed and Black Knight were also good games. Unleashed is obviously the superior of the two. I honestly believe it's better then the Adventure games. It's got a story similar to Adventure and the Sonic stages lack in the platforming department but other then that, it's hard finding something the the Adventure games really excelled at compared to it. Sonic's speed sections were fast and awesome as well as a ton of fun. The ones in the Adventure games I feel are on an equal level of enjoyment with them. Of course Unleashed only had one other gameplay type which was the werehog. The werehog was simple combat and platforming. It was stuff that wasn't strange to the Sonic series at all. Unlike Unleashed which only had 2 types of gameplay, Adventure had 6. I'm all for playing as different characters but some of the stuff we did like slow-walking with Amy, the hunting with Knux, and the unforgettable FISHING with Big... just weren't fun.

Adventure 2 had 3. I thought these were fun. Unleashed, while having a well balanced gameplay set really left me wanting more (playable characters that is). Also, the hubs were much easier to get through and didn't disrupt you from the action as much as the ones from Adventure did. Adventure 2 didn't even have hubs so I guess I can't go there. The graphics are better, that goes without saying. The character models are again, a lot better. The music varies from game to game but I think Unleashed has the best assortment and variety out of all the tracks. Unleashed also had virtually no glitches which is more then I can say for the adventure games. I honestly don't see why some people don't consider it on the level with the adventure games. It can't be because of the werehog. That'd be completely idiotic. Considering the shooting in robot walkers and FISHING we had back then, playing as a beefed up Sonic should seem a bit normal standard in comparison (at least going by what elements to include in a SONIC game).

There's not much I can say on Unleashed, because I've barely played it. It was just boring for me. But as for heroes, the story is a selling point for not just some, but many people, and some people don't like going back through the game three times after basically completing it the first time just so they can play some crappy last story where everything in the poorly-developed story is sloppily tied together.

Independence76 wrote:

Mly wrote:
@i76: What, what happened in '93?

Sonic 3.

The last "good" Sonic game.

1. Sonic 3 came out in 1994

2. Sonic CD came out in 1993

Mly wrote:There's not much I can say on Unleashed, because I've barely played it. It was just boring for me. But as for heroes, the story is a selling point for not just some, but many people, and some people don't like going back through the game three times after basically completing it the first time just so they can play some crappy last story where everything in the poorly-developed story is sloppily tied together.

They don't have to see it that way. They could just see it as playing through it three more times and getting a bonus that they can choose or not choose to do.

And again, it's just the story we're talking about here. The concept and main plot they had going on wasn't bad at all. The way they set it up was however. Trying to be as simple as possible defidently isn't the right way to go. I'm sure they realised that considering they overdid it when Shadow the Hedgehog was being made.

And, you're making it sound like people shouldn't feel like going through and playing the game because they didn't like the story or the cutscenes. I'm pretty sure that back in the 2-D games, the story wasn't shown through cutscenes like this. I doubt they played the game for the story. I doubt they went through the levels again for the story either. That's just silly. The gameplay worked well enough and was fun (For me anyway. I don't know your take on it considering nothing about the gameplay has been said yet) and if the people liked the gameplay and the levels then there should be no dread present when having to go back through them. If they hated the direction the story was going anyway then they probably wouldn't care to go to the next story at all. No one's forcing anyone to complete it fully. If you consider beating one story as basically beating the game then don't do the rest. Seems simple enough.

I don't have any measurable faith in them, but I played and beat Unleashed and that sparked my faith back up. The pilot light has been lit. Now, lets just keep on the path of making good sonic games, but this time, without the problems that made Sonic Unleashed not as re-playable as it could have been imo; they don't add levels during Night time which are boring and have repetitive combat. Also, hub worlds weren't as bad as in 2006, but I still think they weren't all that great.

Day stages were great, and the designs on some of these levels were spectacular, but sonic boost needs to go, or be replaced with a slight "Speed time(or bullet time, or adrenaline time, etc.)" That makes time slightly slower, and allows you to be more precise and do things that would be a lot harder without it. That'd also remove the complaint of the badguys being pretty wimpy and just crashed through. Also, innovative badniks would be nice. Just something other than generic robots that are meh. Make them fit and change with the enviroment. Animal guys in emerald hill zone that mimic what lives there, for example.

Project Needlemouse... not enough info. Just as long as it's not a Megaman 9 scenario...

Um, look, guys. I hate to admit this, but I don't care anymore. I was up in the middle of the night, bored out of my mind and mildly drunk when I made this thread. At the time, I was just looking to type random crap to distract myself from the fact that there was nothing productive I could do unless I ran all the way into the city, which I knew could end in disaster much too easily from past experience.

Mly wrote:Um, look, guys. I hate to admit this, but I don't care anymore. I was up in the middle of the night, bored out of my mind and mildly drunk when I made this thread. At the time, I was just looking to type random crap to distract myself from the fact that there was nothing productive I could do unless I ran all the way into the city, which I knew could end in disaster much too easily from past experience.

Drunk?! Do I have to show you re-runs of the stupid PSAs?

Super Racer Z wrote:I don't have any measurable faith in them, but I played and beat Unleashed and that sparked my faith back up. The pilot light has been lit. Now, lets just keep on the path of making good sonic games, but this time, without the problems that made Sonic Unleashed not as re-playable as it could have been imo; they don't add levels during Night time which are boring and have repetitive combat. Also, hub worlds weren't as bad as in 2006, but I still think they weren't all that great.

Day stages were great, and the designs on some of these levels were spectacular, but sonic boost needs to go, or be replaced with a slight "Speed time(or bullet time, or adrenaline time, etc.)" That makes time slightly slower, and allows you to be more precise and do things that would be a lot harder without it. That'd also remove the complaint of the badguys being pretty wimpy and just crashed through. Also, innovative badniks would be nice. Just something other than generic robots that are meh. Make them fit and change with the enviroment. Animal guys in emerald hill zone that mimic what lives there, for example.

Project Needlemouse... not enough info. Just as long as it's not a Megaman 9 scenario...

I don't see how Megaman 9 is a bad thing though. A Megaman 10 would be a bit too much though.

sykog77 wrote:I don't see how Megaman 9 is a bad thing though. A Megaman 10 would be a bit too much though.

No Mega Man 10 please, I'd rather see them do Mega Man Legends 3 (though it hasn't been made because it would be too expensive), the retro Mega Man fans got what they wanted, so I'm not gonna tolerate any crying about Legends 3 instead of a Mega Man 10.

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:

Mly wrote:Um, look, guys. I hate to admit this, but I don't care anymore. I was up in the middle of the night, bored out of my mind and mildly drunk when I made this thread. At the time, I was just looking to type random crap to distract myself from the fact that there was nothing productive I could do unless I ran all the way into the city, which I knew could end in disaster much too easily from past experience.

Drunk?! Do I have to show you re-runs of the stupid PSAs?

No. Please no. I don't drink and drive, (I can't anymore. I don't have a car. I just run everywhere on my heel-springs.) and I just lay in bed and laugh at late-night TV when I'm really f**ked up, though the only time that's happened recently was when I played the My Immortal drinking game.