9 Ways to improve the series

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:That doesn't make sense. If the fandom drives most of the sales, then they aren't the problem.

I disagree.

The games now are pretty much crap. Compare any new Sonic game to Game of the Year or any game that was suspected to qualify, and it's easy to pick from there.

Sega/Sonic Team needs a major slap to the face if they're going to get anything made by them taken seriously. Now, with the fandom driving their sales train, they aren't going to get that major slap to the face. This is why I see the fandom as a problem. Not only that, but the fandom to the gaming community is almost that of the Harry Potter fandom to Hollywood.

Why should they care to be taken seriously? The fans are driving their sales, thus keeping them alive. If they were to lose the fans in some magical way, it still wouldn't help, because the reputation won't leave. The only way to fix the reputation is to improve the games, not remove the fans. The removal of fans would make them lose money, which would only threaten the quality of the games, thus their reputation stays ruined, thus they die.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
Why should they care to be taken seriously? The fans are driving their sales, thus keeping them alive. If they were to lose the fans in some magical way, it still wouldn't help, because the reputation won't leave. The only way to fix the reputation is to improve the games, not remove the fans. The removal of fans would make them lose money, which would only threaten the quality of the games, thus their reputation stays ruined, thus they die.

That's not a good thing in this situation. Continuously devout fans pushing sales for low-quality games.

The reputation can leave if Sega actually spend their time on an actual "product." This would make the games be taken much more seriously by the normal general gaming public, and it would seem demand for the game would increase outside of the fandom. Basic economics: conforming to new times and new audiences.

I see the current franchise as that of an electronic artist that makes a song and makes a new remix every year. Eventually, everyone will be tired of it, except for the crazed fans. They will drive the movement. This is what happened. An outdated model that needs major re-working to have the slightest bit of success outside the scary fandom.

If this is the road to make a much better game, let them die. They'll learn something and most likely another company will decide to continue things on a much better plan. If this does happen, let's just pray that EA will keep their paws off of it. The games are bad enough as it is...

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:Why should they care to be taken seriously? The fans are driving their sales, thus keeping them alive. If they were to lose the fans in some magical way, it still wouldn't help, because the reputation won't leave. The only way to fix the reputation is to improve the games, not remove the fans. The removal of fans would make them lose money, which would only threaten the quality of the games, thus their reputation stays ruined, thus they die.

That's not a good thing in this situation. Continuously devout fans pushing sales for low-quality games.

The reputation can leave if Sega actually spend their time on an actual "product." This would make the games be taken much more seriously by the normal general gaming public, and it would seem demand for the game would increase outside of the fandom. Basic economics: conforming to new times and new audiences.

I see the current franchise as that of an electronic artist that makes a song and makes a new remix every year. Eventually, everyone will be tired of it, except for the crazed fans. They will drive the movement. This is what happened. An outdated model that needs major re-working to have the slightest bit of success outside the scary fandom.

If this is the road to make a much better game, let them die. They'll learn something and most likely another company will decide to continue things on a much better plan. If this does happen, let's just pray that EA will keep their paws off of it. The games are bad enough as it is...

Yes, Sega can make a good product, but Sega doesn't need to lose the fanbase to this, nor would removing the primary payers do any help. Removing the fans would only remove the amount of money they get.
Yes, but the artist was the one who got lazier. The fans didn't necessarily ask for the artist to make the remix, they just want more of his work.
More than likely their death will be meaningless. They won't learn, others won't learn from them, and nobody will be happy. However, if, rather than remove the fans, they just make quality work like always, the always pleaseable fans are pleased, the games are good, and more people become happy. If the fans are a turnoff for the series and push away outsiders, then fine. But to abadon the fans and then kill themselves to try and hope to impress those outsiders will only lead to more problems. After all, isn't that what Shadow The Game tried to do?

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
Yes, Sega can make a good product, but Sega doesn't need to lose the fanbase to this, nor would removing the primary payers do any help. Removing the fans would only remove the amount of money they get.
Yes, but the artist was the one who got lazier. The fans didn't necessarily ask for the artist to make the remix, they just want more of his work.
More than likely their death will be meaningless. They won't learn, others won't learn from them, and nobody will be happy. However, if, rather than remove the fans, they just make quality work like always, the always pleaseable fans are pleased, the games are good, and more people become happy. If the fans are a turnoff for the series and push away outsiders, then fine. But to abadon the fans and then kill themselves to try and hope to impress those outsiders will only lead to more problems. After all, isn't that what Shadow The Game tried to do?

1. Sega has made many failures in the past few years and the fanbase is always what turns it into a financial success for them. If they loose the fanbase, it'd be a wake up call financially, and they will be forced to question their own product.

2. But in order to hold a reputation, you must go outside the fandom and take things seriously. And comparing attempts by Sega versus other successful companies, you will find a lack of quality level by level.

3. Exactly, but they were aimed more at fangirls. Pieces like this end up in disaster about 99% of the time. They decided to make a shooter.....for their kid fans. Since that was their main target audience that did not consist of fangirls, it ended up being a kids game because Sega was too nervous about making a T-rated game. You see, the fandom only makes things worse. They lead the company down roads that are almost unrecoverable.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:Yes, Sega can make a good product, but Sega doesn't need to lose the fanbase to this, nor would removing the primary payers do any help. Removing the fans would only remove the amount of money they get.
Yes, but the artist was the one who got lazier. The fans didn't necessarily ask for the artist to make the remix, they just want more of his work.
More than likely their death will be meaningless. They won't learn, others won't learn from them, and nobody will be happy. However, if, rather than remove the fans, they just make quality work like always, the always pleaseable fans are pleased, the games are good, and more people become happy. If the fans are a turnoff for the series and push away outsiders, then fine. But to abadon the fans and then kill themselves to try and hope to impress those outsiders will only lead to more problems. After all, isn't that what Shadow The Game tried to do?

1. Sega has made many failures in the past few years and the fanbase is always what turns it into a financial success for them. If they loose the fanbase, it'd be a wake up call financially, and they will be forced to question their own product.

2. But in order to hold a reputation, you must go outside the fandom and take things seriously. And comparing attempts by Sega versus other successful companies, you will find a lack of quality level by level.

3. Exactly, but they were aimed more at fangirls. Pieces like this end up in disaster about 99% of the time. They decided to make a shooter.....for their kid fans. Since that was their main target audience that did not consist of fangirls, it ended up being a kids game because Sega was too nervous about making a T-rated game. You see, the fandom only makes things worse. They lead the company down roads that are almost unrecoverable.

1. Not if they'd die from it. Besides, SNG could be considered that, and considering that the direction of this discussion is that nothing changed, that's not enough to make them question.
2. But they are holding a reputation. Not a good one, but they are holding one, technically defying what you said. If Sega were to go outside the fandom, what would they gain? A better reputation? They need money to survive, and unless they had absolute proof that dumping their fanbase could actually financially improve much more, then Sega has nothing to gain. It's better to have money and a poor rep than be poor and struggling to get a good rep.
3. ...Fangirls? I can't ever recall a fangirl supporting Shadow The Game (not to mention I've seen very few, if any, fangirls in my escapades on the Internet, so I don't why you brought that up), but okay. I have no idea what your talking about, but if they made games for their kid fans only, they'd continue to do so, but they don't. And they obviously continue to recover. Maybe it can be blamed on the fans, but that only gives more reason for Sega to cater to the fans. After all, if the fans care enough to keep them alive and buy a junky game, then it would be understandable to listen to your saviors rather than a bunch of people who more than likely won't ever think highly of you again, regardless of what you do.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
1. Not if they'd die from it. Besides, SNG could be considered that, and considering that the direction of this discussion is that nothing changed, that's not enough to make them question.
2. But they are holding a reputation. Not a good one, but they are holding one, technically defying what you said. If Sega were to go outside the fandom, what would they gain? A better reputation? They need money to survive, and unless they had absolute proof that dumping their fanbase could actually financially improve much more, then Sega has nothing to gain. It's better to have money and a poor rep than be poor and struggling to get a good rep.
3. ...Fangirls? I can't ever recall a fangirl supporting Shadow The Game (not to mention I've seen very few, if any, fangirls in my escapades on the Internet, so I don't why you brought that up), but okay. I have no idea what your talking about, but if they made games for their kid fans only, they'd continue to do so, but they don't. And they obviously continue to recover. Maybe it can be blamed on the fans, but that only gives more reason for Sega to cater to the fans. After all, if the fans care enough to keep them alive and buy a junky game, then it would be understandable to listen to your saviors rather than a bunch of people who more than likely won't ever think highly of you again, regardless of what you do.

1. If they die from it, it will be their problem and a symbol to others of irresponsible game programming and the company's downfall.

2. Would you rather die with a good image or die with the image of having produced failures of childish video games?

3. They're not around much here, but trust me, they come in by the truckload. When asked about the game, they talk about how much they liked it. They tried to escape the childish video game history for a game or two, only they did it horribly wrong. Every aspect of the game had some crazy falter. Their devotion to having an "E/E 13+" as their rating created many of those problems.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:1. Not if they'd die from it. Besides, SNG could be considered that, and considering that the direction of this discussion is that nothing changed, that's not enough to make them question.
2. But they are holding a reputation. Not a good one, but they are holding one, technically defying what you said. If Sega were to go outside the fandom, what would they gain? A better reputation? They need money to survive, and unless they had absolute proof that dumping their fanbase could actually financially improve much more, then Sega has nothing to gain. It's better to have money and a poor rep than be poor and struggling to get a good rep.
3. ...Fangirls? I can't ever recall a fangirl supporting Shadow The Game (not to mention I've seen very few, if any, fangirls in my escapades on the Internet, so I don't why you brought that up), but okay. I have no idea what your talking about, but if they made games for their kid fans only, they'd continue to do so, but they don't. And they obviously continue to recover. Maybe it can be blamed on the fans, but that only gives more reason for Sega to cater to the fans. After all, if the fans care enough to keep them alive and buy a junky game, then it would be understandable to listen to your saviors rather than a bunch of people who more than likely won't ever think highly of you again, regardless of what you do.

1. If they die from it, it will be their problem and a symbol to others of irresponsible game programming and the company's downfall.

2. Would you rather die with a good image or die with the image of having produced failures of childish video games?

3. They're not around much here, but trust me, they come in by the truckload. When asked about the game, they talk about how much they liked it. They tried to escape the childish video game history for a game or two, only they did it horribly wrong. Every aspect of the game had some crazy falter. Their devotion to having an "E/E 13+" as their rating created many of those problems.

1. A symbol people will still ignore. A pointless death won't do anything, and even if the symbol was strong enough to pay attention to (though not likely since their rep has made them ignored anyway), the irresponsible will still be irresponsible anyway.
2. I'd rather not die at all, and in this case, they wouldn't die with a good image; the image isn't going to be salvaged through this manner.
3. It must be a small truck that frequents small corners of the net, because I can't recall any. I can safely say I've seen many more fans complain about the failures of the franchise over obsessing on the games. Not to forget that this topic has already received complaints over the general and consistent use of the subject matter. And no, those problems didn't result from their devotion to getting a high rating; that came from them being lazy/incompetant.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
1. A symbol people will still ignore. A pointless death won't do anything, and even if the symbol was strong enough to pay attention to (though not likely since their rep has made them ignored anyway), the irresponsible will still be irresponsible anyway.
2. I'd rather not die at all, and in this case, they wouldn't die with a good image; the image isn't going to be salvaged through this manner.
3. It must be a small truck that frequents small corners of the net, because I can't recall any. I can safely say I've seen many more fans complain about the failures of the franchise over obsessing on the games. Not to forget that this topic has already received complaints over the general and consistent use of the subject matter. And no, those problems didn't result from their devotion to getting a high rating; that came from them being lazy/incompetent.

1. They may or may not ignore it. We cannot be sure.

2. Then what do you suggest to be done?

3. I'm not a fan and I'm surely not obsessed. Ok, so, if they're lazy and incompetent, how do you fix it?

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
1. A symbol people will still ignore. A pointless death won't do anything, and even if the symbol was strong enough to pay attention to (though not likely since their rep has made them ignored anyway), the irresponsible will still be irresponsible anyway.
2. I'd rather not die at all, and in this case, they wouldn't die with a good image; the image isn't going to be salvaged through this manner.
3. It must be a small truck that frequents small corners of the net, because I can't recall any. I can safely say I've seen many more fans complain about the failures of the franchise over obsessing on the games. Not to forget that this topic has already received complaints over the general and consistent use of the subject matter. And no, those problems didn't result from their devotion to getting a high rating; that came from them being lazy/incompetent.

1. They may or may not ignore it. We cannot be sure.

2. Then what do you suggest to be done?

3. I'm not a fan and I'm surely not obsessed. Ok, so, if they're lazy and incompetent, how do you fix it?

1. I'm pretty sure, considering companies have already failed miserably and nobody took notice or learned from them.
2. Sega to stop being lazy/incompetant and make quality games.
3. Sega simply needs to give them motivation. Make them work right; otherwise, they need to find someone who will do what they need to get quality games.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
1. I'm pretty sure, considering companies have already failed miserably and nobody took notice or learned from them.
2. Sega to stop being lazy/incompetant and make quality games.
3. Sega simply needs to give them motivation. Make them work right; otherwise, they need to find someone who will do what they need to get quality games.

1.












2. Yeah, but the fanbase supporting them financially will keep them from ever questioning the game quality.

3. They think they're working right. They keep going down the road of shame and don't even notice it. They are the Helen Keller Video Game Co..

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
1. I'm pretty sure, considering companies have already failed miserably and nobody took notice or learned from them.
2. Sega to stop being lazy/incompetant and make quality games.
3. Sega simply needs to give them motivation. Make them work right; otherwise, they need to find someone who will do what they need to get quality games.

1.












2. Yeah, but the fanbase supporting them financially will keep them from ever questioning the game quality.

3. They think they're working right. They keep going down the road of shame and don't even notice it. They are the Helen Keller Video Game Co..

1. Pretty much what I was thinking.
2. Not really. They just have to actually pay attention to the fanbase. Considering finding fan complaints is quite easy, and considering they are quite common, it won't be a problem for them to question. And considering the games sales usually fall and rise depending on quality, they'd know whether or not their games' quality is sufficient or not.
3. Not true. They notice it. The problem is they either don't care or they don't have the skills to improve. In both cases, Sega needs to step in and take control.

It actually really offends me how often people take games for granted and complain about them at the drop of a hat, saying "I wish it was good!" and "Make it good!" It shows to me a complete lack of respect for the people who work long hours and sit through endless meetings and demos to make these games (no different for Sonic Team or Sega Studios USA than any other studio out there). There's never any magic spell or button that could be pressed at will to make a game fun and satisfying, and my experiences with the games industry have drilled that into me. Generally, ideas are thought of, deliberated (a lot) and built and tested upon even more ideas. The industry is a tough place, all so that people can create amazing game experiences for everyone.

By now, it should be clear as day to the Team that they need to step up and get working on Sonic like they mean it, and the pressure must be astronomical for them. Within months may come an announcement of exactly what they've been making lately, pouring their effort into, and it would take nanoseconds for the obligatory maelstrom of hate and naysaying to burst forth across the Net (ask me about the rants about Red Alert 3, which is so far my favorite game that I worked on). Between now and an announcement of a new Sonic game, anything in the world can happen behind closed doors.


Also, perhaps I should be reminding that Sega's about more than just a hedgehog. Let's not forget Phantasy Star, Samba, Condemned (Monolith Productions), MadWorld (Platinum Games), The Conduit (High Voltage) and the Total War series (Creative Assembly).

The Freedom Fighter wrote:1. Pretty much what I was thinking.
2. Not really. They just have to actually pay attention to the fanbase. Considering finding fan complaints is quite easy, and considering they are quite common, it won't be a problem for them to question. And considering the games sales usually fall and rise depending on quality, they'd know whether or not their games' quality is sufficient or not.
3. Not true. They notice it. The problem is they either don't care or they don't have the skills to improve. In both cases, Sega needs to step in and take control.

1. Skipping

2. The fact that many complaints are contradictory means the company can't trust them. They need to start from the ground up on the whole thing rather than changing little things they think the majority of fans are asking.

3. Sega's games haven't been very good either. Sonic Team is only worse.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:2. Not really. They just have to actually pay attention to the fanbase. Considering finding fan complaints is quite easy, and considering they are quite common, it won't be a problem for them to question. And considering the games sales usually fall and rise depending on quality, they'd know whether or not their games' quality is sufficient or not.
3. Not true. They notice it. The problem is they either don't care or they don't have the skills to improve. In both cases, Sega needs to step in and take control.

2. The fact that many complaints are contradictory means the company can't trust them. They need to start from the ground up on the whole thing rather than changing little things they think the majority of fans are asking.

3. Sega's games haven't been very good either. Sonic Team is only worse.

2. Not exactly. They could easily pay attention to both and see which is more profitable and more detailed in their responses. Both aren't necessarily wrong, but I feel listening to both would be receive more success than just hoping one side is the right side.
3. Yes, hence why Sega needs to step in and fix things.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
2. Not exactly. They could easily pay attention to both and see which is more profitable and more detailed in their responses. Both aren't necessarily wrong, but I feel listening to both would be receive more success than just hoping one side is the right side.
3. Yes, hence why Sega needs to step in and fix things.

2. From the way the games are, they seem to take trips to a different side everytime they make a game. Fixing one thing at a time.....while keeping the things people can't take them seriously for.

3. If a company is stupid and doesn't have very good products, how are they going to see that by themselves? It's almost illogical for a company to say "hey, our products aren't very good anymore, lets fix them." They just don't do that, and especially Sega.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:2. Not exactly. They could easily pay attention to both and see which is more profitable and more detailed in their responses. Both aren't necessarily wrong, but I feel listening to both would be receive more success than just hoping one side is the right side.
3. Yes, hence why Sega needs to step in and fix things.

2. From the way the games are, they seem to take trips to a different side everytime they make a game. Fixing one thing at a time.....while keeping the things people can't take them seriously for.

3. If a company is stupid and doesn't have very good products, how are they going to see that by themselves? It's almost illogical for a company to say "hey, our products aren't very good anymore, lets fix them." They just don't do that, and especially Sega.

2. Hence why I feel they should listen to both.
3. They do if they look at the comments, responses, and overall opinions their products get, which I'd think most companies do anyway. And from what I've seen, Sega are trying to fix them, so I'd think they're getting the message.

Bump.

Sonic is in a desperate need of evolution. This is, sadly, a critical moment for the series. If the games don't evolve and change into something that can have some substance, then I don't know how much longer the series will last.

We all know that speed is an integral part of Sonic - he's the fastest thing alive, right? These Black Knight and Unleashed games had interesting concepts, but they felt gimmicky.

"Hey! Look, it's Sonic! Yeah! He's in a new game and... uh... and he changes into a werecreature when the moon comes out! Oooh!"

"Um, he has a sword in this game."

The games need something original, with some substance, but keeping it's core mechanic and ideas.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

FelixMargarita wrote:Sonic is in a desperate need of evolution. This is, sadly, a critical moment for the series. If the games don't evolve and change into something that can have some substance, then I don't know how much longer the series will last.

We all know that speed is an integral part of Sonic - he's the fastest thing alive, right? These Black Knight and Unleashed games had interesting concepts, but they felt gimmicky.

"Hey! Look, it's Sonic! Yeah! He's in a new game and... uh... and he changes into a werecreature when the moon comes out! Oooh!"

"Um, he has a sword in this game."

The games need something original, with some substance, but keeping it's core mechanic and ideas.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

While I don't think those were necessarily good ideas, I think rthey should keep trying new concepts.

sykog77 wrote:

FelixMargarita wrote:Sonic is in a desperate need of evolution. This is, sadly, a critical moment for the series. If the games don't evolve and change into something that can have some substance, then I don't know how much longer the series will last.

We all know that speed is an integral part of Sonic - he's the fastest thing alive, right? These Black Knight and Unleashed games had interesting concepts, but they felt gimmicky.

"Hey! Look, it's Sonic! Yeah! He's in a new game and... uh... and he changes into a werecreature when the moon comes out! Oooh!"

"Um, he has a sword in this game."

The games need something original, with some substance, but keeping it's core mechanic and ideas.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

While I don't think those were necessarily good ideas, I think rthey should keep trying new concepts.

I wholeheartedly agree. Evolve or die.

1. Fire all Sega employees
2. Fire all Sega employees
3. Fire all Sega employees
4. Fire all Sega employees
5. Fire all Sega employees
6. Fire all Sega employees
7. Fire all Sega employees
8. Fire all Sega employees
9. Set fire to all Sega employees

Independence76 wrote:1. Fire all Sega employees
2. Fire all Sega employees
3. Fire all Sega employees
4. Fire all Sega employees
5. Fire all Sega employees
6. Fire all Sega employees
7. Fire all Sega employees
8. Fire all Sega employees
9. Set fire to all Sega employees

So set fire to zero? At least that's somewhat humane, although not by much.

Independence76 wrote:1. Fire all Sega employees
2. Fire all Sega employees
3. Fire all Sega employees
4. Fire all Sega employees
5. Fire all Sega employees
6. Fire all Sega employees
7. Fire all Sega employees
8. Fire all Sega employees
9. Set fire to all Sega employees

That made me laugh. :P

Independence76 wrote:1. Fire all Sega employees
2. Fire all Sega employees
3. Fire all Sega employees
4. Fire all Sega employees
5. Fire all Sega employees
6. Fire all Sega employees
7. Fire all Sega employees
8. Fire all Sega employees
9. Set fire to all Sega employees

What about the GOOD SEGA employees?

Chaosmaster8753 wrote:
What about the GOOD SEGA employees?

....what do you mean?