9 Ways to improve the series

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

I never said anything about the fanbase being all bad or that kind of nonsense. Of course there's good in them. Not everyone in this fanbase are complete and total idiots who like to argue and curse each other out. The positive and good hearted stuff is also what makes humans, humans.

It's like you're speaking as if you're not apart of the fanbase. Because I know it's in you. That's for sure.

Yes that is true, but all the obnoxious fans shine brighter.

sykog77 wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

I never said anything about the fanbase being all bad or that kind of nonsense. Of course there's good in them. Not everyone in this fanbase are complete and total idiots who like to argue and curse each other out. The positive and good hearted stuff is also what makes humans, humans.

It's like you're speaking as if you're not apart of the fanbase. Because I know it's in you. That's for sure.

Yes that is true, but all the obnoxious fans shine brighter.

Because we let them shine. My speech was to show that they are redeemable, we just have to help them along the way.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

sykog77 wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

I never said anything about the fanbase being all bad or that kind of nonsense. Of course there's good in them. Not everyone in this fanbase are complete and total idiots who like to argue and curse each other out. The positive and good hearted stuff is also what makes humans, humans.

It's like you're speaking as if you're not apart of the fanbase. Because I know it's in you. That's for sure.

Yes that is true, but all the obnoxious fans shine brighter.

Because we let them shine. My speech was to show that they are redeemable, we just have to help them along the way.

But I've tried, oh how I have tried to make those people think about why they hate it and if they can describe the things they hate... "I don't need a reason", or "Because I just do", or "Meh, I just don't like it", and don't forget "Because it's Sonic"... see my point?

Unless I could ambush them in real life or something, I don't think it'd be possible unless a miracle happens. Hell, sometimes I don't think they even read the posts...

That's part of the reason why I try to remain optimistic.

Super Racer Z wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

sykog77 wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:

Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

I never said anything about the fanbase being all bad or that kind of nonsense. Of course there's good in them. Not everyone in this fanbase are complete and total idiots who like to argue and curse each other out. The positive and good hearted stuff is also what makes humans, humans.

It's like you're speaking as if you're not apart of the fanbase. Because I know it's in you. That's for sure.

Yes that is true, but all the obnoxious fans shine brighter.

Because we let them shine. My speech was to show that they are redeemable, we just have to help them along the way.

But I've tried, oh how I have tried to make those people think about why they hate it and if they can describe the things they hate... "I don't need a reason", or "Because I just do", or "Meh, I just don't like it", and don't forget "Because it's Sonic"... see my point?

Unless I could ambush them in real life or something, I don't think it'd be possible unless a miracle happens. Hell, sometimes I don't think they even read the posts...

And so have I. We can't win every battle, but we can't give up at every loss either.

Independence76 wrote:

Erazor wrote:I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.

Agreed.

I lost hope a long time ago for the games as well as the community, hence the reason why I'm so critical of it.

I also hate the Sega boards because I see one question repeated over again and again.

Present day...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

3 days later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

5 says later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

4 days later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

They're all idiots who don't care about other threads that keep failing and have mixed votes and then go on to ask ANOTHER question that has sparked flame wars in the past. I've never seen a forum so stupid.

They're hopeless, and so are the games.

QFT. This is exactly the reason I don't even bother with going to Sonic Games or Cartoons and Comics, anymore. Better to just stick to the Lounge....but i'm even being run out of there, as well.

sykog77 wrote:

Independence76 wrote:

Erazor wrote:I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.

Agreed.

I lost hope a long time ago for the games as well as the community, hence the reason why I'm so critical of it.

I also hate the Sega boards because I see one question repeated over again and again.

Present day...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

3 days later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

5 says later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

4 days later...

"Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

They're all idiots who don't care about other threads that keep failing and have mixed votes and then go on to ask ANOTHER question that has sparked flame wars in the past. I've never seen a forum so stupid.

They're hopeless, and so are the games.

You forgot: "Should Silver/Shadow have their own game?"

That topic was hilarious.

I do agree with a few of these, especially the bottomless pit portion. My main for the series is this, bring back the Sonic Adventure series. How the hell is Sega still in business anyways with their so called "new" ideas?

Killman wrote:I do agree with a few of these, especially the bottomless pit portion. My main for the series is this, bring back the Sonic Adventure series. How the hell is Sega still in business anyways with their so called "new" ideas?

I've been asking myself the same question for over 5 years.

The SA series was at least slight quality when it comes to today. I still hated Sonic's cheesy attitude, but that was nothing compared to Heroes. SA and SA2 were actually fun and entertaining. Those were the days...

However, how Sega is still in business is a mystery to me. They make pretty bad products but they still gain a profit. It doesn't make any sense when it comes to finance and business techniques.

You know, even the games in the series that everyone says are the best things to have graced the world of video gaming this side of Do You Like Horny Bunnies? had bottomless pits. Mario 64 had a ton of bottomless pits. The entire gimmick of Super Mario Galaxy is finding creative ways to work with bottomless pits. They just can't be the only obstacle.

Also, I loved SA's secondary gameplay, especially for Tails and Knuckles. Big's wasn't great, admittedly, but easy to beat unless you wanted those other emblems. Froggy is easy to catch.

I was so hoping for something that wasn't exactly the same as a copy-paste job from the previously-mentioned site.


However, rather than curse the darkness I will add 3 things that I think are just as, if not more important, taken in the perspective of the 3D titles.


1. Open environments. Sure, the hubs were usually pretty good at that sort of thing, but the levels much less so. Most, especially from SA2 onward, were single-track levels basically built like a roller coaster. Unfortunately this is the equivalent of taking a 2D level and just shifting the camera from the character's side to his behind. Very rarely in any game barring SA has that third dimension been used particularly well. Even levels like Speed Highway, which were full of forced speed and scripted sections, were somewhat enjoyable on account of the fact that their use of 3D meant that there were all sorts of hidden or perhaps unintended shortcuts, or in the case of Final Egg lots of secret areas.

2. Realistic physics for characters. Similar to "less scripted events" -- the idea is to make obstacles relate better to Sonic's controls. Loops in most of the games have absolutely nothing to do with any of the rest of the physics engines. I'm fine with the game helping me, say, stay in the center of the loop or even disabling my input during it, but for the love of god make the ability to actually run through the loop somehow connected to my current momentum. This is the big problem I have with Sonic Heroes, actually, that what would otherwise be a decent game is ruined by the fact that loops, fly formation, and rails all mess with how the characters work. Also I'm going to throw the crappy feeling that jumping has in Rush and Unleashed here too.

3. Tighter control. Very closely related to point 2 there, this is a complaint stemming from the fact that Sonic takes forever to slow down. Though his acceleration is remarkably high for some reason, his deceleration in the 3D titles, especially Unleashed is absolutely abysmal. Unfortunately this means that any time the player is taken through a section involving tighter platforming, the player is ill-equipped to handle it because the controls are too sensitive to speed that way. I'll throw Unleashed's truly abhorrent air maneuverability -- Heroes' was significantly better even despite fly formation being so glitchy and awkward --


Unleashed, on account of not being rushed to market in a horribly incomplete and unplayable state, generally improved significantly on point 2 compared to the few games that immediately proceeded it, at least in the 3D series, done well for 1 in the night stages, but damn if in the day stages and few bits here and there in the night stages the controls are still damn shoddy.

Gamma The Great wrote:You know, even the games in the series that everyone says are the best things to have graced the world of video gaming this side of Do You Like Horny Bunnies? had bottomless pits. Mario 64 had a ton of bottomless pits. The entire gimmick of Super Mario Galaxy is finding creative ways to work with bottomless pits. They just can't be the only obstacle.

A lot of those bottomless pits could be replaced with good old-fashioned spike pits. Especially in early levels, where if the player can't manage to traverse an entire area without falling, they can at least make up for it by running the rest of the way across (while flashing). The penalty is lost rings.

Baku wrote:

Gamma The Great wrote:You know, even the games in the series that everyone says are the best things to have graced the world of video gaming this side of Do You Like Horny Bunnies? had bottomless pits. Mario 64 had a ton of bottomless pits. The entire gimmick of Super Mario Galaxy is finding creative ways to work with bottomless pits. They just can't be the only obstacle.

A lot of those bottomless pits could be replaced with good old-fashioned spike pits. Especially in early levels, where if the player can't manage to traverse an entire area without falling, they can at least make up for it by running the rest of the way across (while flashing). The penalty is lost rings.

Or, you know, make alternate routes where the pits usually are.

I don't want to look like a stupid troll or a wannabe mod, but honestly, am I really the only one who sighs/facepalms/groans/eyerolls whenever I see ANOTHER topic about how to "fix" the series? I know, I know; nothing's forcing me to read or even post in those topics, but the fact remains that there's literally been countless topics like those, and even those that aren't entirely retarded are still based on nothing but opinions.

It's just a very irritating pet peeve of mine, and somehow I doubt I'm the only one annoyed by those.

Xejuan Xiang wrote:I don't want to look like a stupid troll or a wannabe mod, but honestly, am I really the only one who sighs/facepalms/groans/eyerolls whenever I see ANOTHER topic about how to "fix" the series? I know, I know; nothing's forcing me to read or even post in those topics, but the fact remains that there's literally been countless topics like those, and even those that aren't entirely retarded are still based on nothing but opinions.

It's just a very irritating pet peeve of mine, and somehow I doubt I'm the only one annoyed by those.

So yes, to those who are groaning, this is yet another "How Can We Fix Sonic" thread, but, this time, it's in regard to what someone else (Sonic Science) is saying, and if a majority of us agree with the points that site is making, then we might be getting somewhere. I agree with all the nine points, except for the seventh one (bottomless pits). They shouldn't be taken out entirely, make them spike pits instead, as someone else suggested. Maybe one bottomless pit here or there. Or water that he could drown in, that always adds suspense to the gameplay. I've never heard of Sonic Science until a few minutes ago, but I just read everything and I have to say that it is the best resource so far on what made the classic Sonic games fun to play in the first place.

Tell you what I'm gonna do guys. If we can agree with Sonic Science or have a general consensus on how exactly to fix Sonic besides saying "Make it like the classics!", then I will start a new thread where we can start hammering out a letter or an e-mail to SEGA of America. No joke. This is going to come out corny, but so be it. We need to stop moping and complaining about the current state the Sonic franchise is in (while continuing to buy the newest games) and take action. Starting with raising our standards to make this the thread where we can finally agree on the major ways to fix the Sonic series. I don't care if it takes us a whole year to figure it out, let's get down to it. I'm sick of seeing complaints of new characters or poor controls. I just want something done. Now.

Sonic fans shouldn't have a hand in making Sonic games. I thought BioWare made that abundantly clear. Despite how good the ideas might be, everyone has a different perception of what "Sonic" is. Some grew up with the 16-bit games, so they want the sort of experience those offered. Others didn't join the club until the multiplatform jump, so they're expecting more linear courses that make the Sonic franchise less of a platformer and more of a racing game. Though I do agree with many of the points above, it's silly to assume that Sega would listen to a small minority of fans while the majority are very happy to buy anything with the character's face on it.

Sonic fans shouldn't have a hand in making Sonic games. I thought BioWare made that abundantly clear.

I agree that too much intervention from people can make a Sonic game suck, but let's give them and Bioware benefit of the doubt. They were making an RPG, made even slower and alien from the idea of Sonic because it's a turn based RPG. I still don't know why Game Informer gave it such a high score, though.

...it's silly to assume that Sega would listen to a small minority of fans while the majority are very happy to buy anything with the character's face on it.

And that's why nothing gets done. If we know SEGA won't do anything or listen to people when their flagship series is in trouble, then what's the point of being cynical and complaining? Why not move on to a series that we like and something that's successful critically as well? No one got anything done with that kind of attitude. That's not personal, I think many people think that way. I thought that way at one time. But it sure as heck wouldn't kill us to try, now wouldn't it?

You're saying that among the hundreds of thousands of Sonic fans on the internet, countless numbers of whom declare their furry sexcapades both online and in the real world, build entire imaginary worlds around their fan characters, and go out of their way to harass anyone who says that Sonic isn't in his prime, only a few of those would have the balls to contact SEGA of America? I put forward a counter argument. Out of all the fans of Sonic on the internet, most all of them are shameless enough to harass Sonic Team enough to the point of the fanbase seeming like some sick twisted gelatinous monster. There's a reason Sonic Team doesn't care about Sonic anymore, and I guarantee that's one of the primary factors.

Sonic Team's not going to change their primary mechanic of gameplay on a whim, especially on the whim of one fan, or even one thousand fans. The only innovation they care about giving these days are secondary mechanics (werehog, rail-running) and secondary characters. And that's not just presuming something without even trying. That's looking at all that SEGA's done the past few years, and how the fans have ended up dictating this style of game design.

Sonic Team obviously cares, but they're tired of being pushed around. Just look at SNG. Rather than let them finish it properly, Sega had pushed it out. If they didn't, SU wouldn't have been as well as it was. They care, but when they get pushed around and have to be restricted, it's not fun for them, and thus quality will suffer. The problem isn't the fans.
As for Bioware, their problem wasn't the fans either. They simply didn't try as hard. And just because Archie was a major inspiration, that doesn't mean the game failed because of it. If they had put more time in it, fix up the story and characters, use more proper graphics like they had started out with, get actual Sonic music and effects, and make the gameplay more like Sonic and less like EBA, perhaps we'd have a better experience. The fans didn't ask for any of the failures.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:Sonic Team obviously cares, but they're tired of being pushed around. Just look at SNG. Rather than let them finish it properly, Sega had pushed it out. If they didn't, SU wouldn't have been as well as it was. They care, but when they get pushed around and have to be restricted, it's not fun for them, and thus quality will suffer. The problem isn't the fans.

No, it's definitely a problem.

That may not be the sole problem, but it sure screws the franchise over pretty well.


Exhibit A:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/most-awful/seven-awful-internet.php?page=2

You see, when critics come to fandoms, usually they're very biased. However, this article was 100% true. The accuracy was amazing.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:Sonic Team obviously cares, but they're tired of being pushed around. Just look at SNG. Rather than let them finish it properly, Sega had pushed it out. If they didn't, SU wouldn't have been as well as it was. They care, but when they get pushed around and have to be restricted, it's not fun for them, and thus quality will suffer. The problem isn't the fans.

No, it's definitely a problem.

That may not be the sole problem, but it sure screws the franchise over pretty well.


Exhibit A:
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/most-awful/seven-awful-internet.php?page=2

You see, when critics come to fandoms, usually they're very biased. However, this article was 100% true. The accuracy was amazing.

This article is loaded with opinion. I can see it by the second sentence, by the diagram, and by the very last paragraph. I've read it already, and while the editor uses a good number of facts and points out that there are some very, awful, things out there on the Internet, the article definitely isn't true, and it definitely gives no evidence as to how the fans are causing the games themselves to falter. They didn't make mistakes in programming, they didn't leave glitches for consumers to find and get irratated at, and they didn't cause the failures of the games. The problem isn't the fans.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:This article is loaded with opinion. I can see it by the second sentence, by the diagram, and by the very last paragraph. I've read it already, and while the editor uses a good number of facts and points out that there are some very, awful, things out there on the Internet, the article definitely isn't true, and it definitely gives no evidence as to how the fans are causing the games themselves to falter. They didn't make mistakes in programming, they didn't leave glitches for consumers to find and get irratated at, and they didn't cause the failures of the games. The problem isn't the fans.

Not exactly.

I never said that the fans were directly responsible for unintelligent programming. The fandom merely gives the franchise a bad image to make more people scared just to like a Sonic game.

The fanbase is not the source of the problems. The fanbase is merely an outcome of numerous problems originally there.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:This article is loaded with opinion. I can see it by the second sentence, by the diagram, and by the very last paragraph. I've read it already, and while the editor uses a good number of facts and points out that there are some very, awful, things out there on the Internet, the article definitely isn't true, and it definitely gives no evidence as to how the fans are causing the games themselves to falter. They didn't make mistakes in programming, they didn't leave glitches for consumers to find and get irratated at, and they didn't cause the failures of the games. The problem isn't the fans.

Not exactly.

I never said that the fans were directly responsible for unintelligent programming. The fandom merely gives the franchise a bad image to make more people scared just to like a Sonic game.

The fanbase is not the source of the problems. The fanbase is merely an outcome of numerous problems originally there.

Regardless of what poor image the fandom creates, it apparently does little to stop sales, if it does anything at all. If SNG didn't stop sales, I doubt the dark, secretive, not well-known portion of the fanbase isn't going to, especially since they've done this for many years already.

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
Regardless of what poor image the fandom creates, it apparently does little to stop sales, if it does anything at all. If SNG didn't stop sales, I doubt the dark, secretive, not well-known portion of the fanbase isn't going to, especially since they've done this for many years already.

And that leads to another problem. The fandom drives most of the sales.

Which would mean Sega/Sonic Team begin to prosper and a wake-up call is never made.

Independence76 wrote:

The Freedom Fighter wrote:
Regardless of what poor image the fandom creates, it apparently does little to stop sales, if it does anything at all. If SNG didn't stop sales, I doubt the dark, secretive, not well-known portion of the fanbase isn't going to, especially since they've done this for many years already.

And that leads to another problem. The fandom drives most of the sales.

Which would mean Sega/Sonic Team begin to prosper and a wake-up call is never made.

That doesn't make sense. If the fandom drives most of the sales, then they aren't the problem.

[quote="The Freedom Fighter"]

Independence76 wrote:
That doesn't make sense. If the fandom drives most of the sales, then they aren't the problem.

I disagree.

The games now are pretty much crap. Compare any new Sonic game to Game of the Year or any game that was suspected to qualify, and it's easy to pick from there.

Sega/Sonic Team needs a major slap to the face if they're going to get anything made by them taken seriously. Now, with the fandom driving their sales train, they aren't going to get that major slap to the face. This is why I see the fandom as a problem. Not only that, but the fandom to the gaming community is almost that of the Harry Potter fandom to Hollywood.