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    Post by Zez July 10th 2009, 5:47 am

    1. Provide greater control over Sonic’s speed

    The classic games have different varieties of speed:

    Over-clock speed – The fastest speed – achieved using devices such as speed pads
    Top Speed – The fastest speed possible without using devices
    Normal & Accelerating speed – Experienced when moving from a stationery state.
    In the classic games, the player can usually shift between these speeds at will.
    This provides more control over the speed.

    The modern games frequently use devices such as speed pads.
    These force the player to exclusively use over-clock speed for large stretches of the level, making the game overly-linear.



    2. Use less scripted events

    In scripted events, the player has limited control over Sonic’s speed and so cannot perform actions that would slow Sonic down.
    Scripted events, therefore, unleash the full potential of Sonic’s speed.
    However, by limiting control, scripted events can be linear and repetitive.

    In the classic games, scripted events infrequently occur, allowing them to remain exciting.
    In modern games, scripted events occur frequently.
    Although this makes the games faster, it also causes repetition.

    Later games have added obstacles to the events to increase interest.
    However, reacting to the obstacles is difficult due to the speed of the scripted events.
    This cause frustration as the player has to memorise the course to succeed.


    3. Make speed meaningful

    Platform games frequently contain devices that assist progress through the level.
    For example, an elevator may allow access to a higher area.
    In the classic Sonic games, these devices have a unique Sonic twist.
    For example, spinning tops are powered by Sonic’s speed to make them fly upwards.

    These devices allow Sonic’s speed to be put to a meaningful and useful purpose. It caused Sonic’s speed to be valued as a super power.
    The devices also establish a unique identity for the Sonic series, as they can only work in a Sonic game.
    The slower protagonists of other games lack the speed needed to power the device.

    Such devices rarely appear in modern games.
    This lowers the value of Sonic’s speed and removes the unique identity of the series.


    4. Restore the pinball mechanics

    The classic games incorporate a pinball dynamic.

    For example, Sonic can roll into ball whilst running. This enables him to tear through obstacles (similar to a pinball that has been flicked across a pinball board).

    These mechanics create a thrilling sense of invulnerability and allow for the unique experience of being a ‘living pinball’.

    The mechanics are missing in the modern games as Sonic’s ball rolling abilities no longer have a useful purpose.


    5. Include carefully integrated, slower-paced obstacle sections

    Speed can become repetitive.

    Slower paced obstacle sections occur in the classic games at regular intervals.
    These sections create contrast to the speed, allowing the speedier moments to stand-out


    The obstacles are carefully integrated to encourage (not force) the player to slow down.
    This also makes the slower pacing virtually unnoticeable.


    6. Increase player choice

    Moving at high speeds is a thrilling, exhilarating experience.
    It is also a linear experience, as only a limited range of actions can be perform when running.


    The classic games offer plenty of alternative routes (some hidden), which allow the player to devise an individual path to the goal.
    This counteracts the linearity of the speed.


    In modern games, alternative routes are rarely used.
    Although simple shortcuts occur frequently, they barely differ from the main route, which removes the motive to find them.


    7. Remove bottomless pits

    In modern Sonic games, deviating from the main path will usually cause the player to fall into a bottomless pit. This makes the game claustrophobically linear.
    Bottomless pits are frustrating as they force the player to restart and retread old ground.
    Speed is pleasurable as it allows us to move forwards and reach ‘new’ spaces.
    By forcing the player to retread ‘old’ spaces, bottomless pits disrupt progress and negate the pleasures of speed.


    8. Make challenges more forgiving

    In the classic games, challenges are "forgiving".
    For example, if the player makes a mistake when tackling an obstacle, Sonic does not die, but only loses rings.
    If the player recollects the lost rings quickly before they disappear, s/he can attempt the obstacle again without the danger of death.
    In modern Sonic games, making a mistake often sends Sonic into a bottomless pit.
    This causes frustration for, as noted, bottomless pits go against the pleasures of speed.


    9. Remove unnecessary play styles

    Modern Sonic games offer multiple play styles.
    Developing different play styles consumes significant development resources (in both time and money).
    This causes modern Sonic games to feel underdeveloped and unrefined.
    If multiple play styles must be included, they should closely adhere to Sonic’s play style.
    This will minimise the development costs, allowing more resources for developing and refining the main Sonic experience.
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    Post by The Freedom Fighter July 10th 2009, 11:38 am

    Zezima wrote:1. Provide greater control over Sonic’s speed
    I agree in a sense. But I think speed pads need to be reduced. If anything, bring back the speed shoes, get in touch with the roots, but still not overuse them.
    Zezima wrote:2. Use less scripted events
    Yeah, I agree for the most part.
    Zezima wrote:3. Make speed meaningful
    I agree.
    Zezima wrote:4. Restore the pinball mechanics
    I definitely agree. Sonic was one of the chosen designs because he could roll into a ball. But now he hardly ever is in ball form. He doesn't even have to roll up to do Homing Attack in the Storybook series, and he can just run into an enemy now at a higher speed and kill it. It's quite sad to me.
    Zezima wrote:5. Include carefully integrated, slower-paced obstacle sections
    The only problem with this is that Sonic is so fast in more current games it could be harder to slow him down for a particular section. But otherwise I agree.
    Zezima wrote:6. Increase player choice
    Well, to be fair, the classic games are still kinda linear, but they have many more options. You'd think being 3D would give that amount and more, but not really. I guess the developers are just trying to make a straight path to the goal, and although some shortcuts are made, they're either not practical, not doable, or not affordable, and hence not implimented. But I agree they should let us have more than one way to get to the goal.
    Zezima wrote:7. Remove bottomless pits
    I can only assume this is done because the developers don't have the time, patience, or money to make a lower ground level. Too bad, because it would probably give the player more options and fun stuff to do. So I agree.
    Zezima wrote:8. Make challenges more forgiving
    Yes, I do dislike that, but I'm usually lucky when it comes to that.
    Zezima wrote:9. Remove unnecessary play styles
    I agree, although I will say I have enjoyed the multiple play styles featured over the years.
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    Post by sykog July 10th 2009, 2:44 pm

    Why didn't you put quotes around your post?
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    Post by Independence76 July 10th 2009, 4:52 pm

    1. Replace Voice Actors.
    2. Replace Crush 40, etc.
    3. Replace Sega.
    4. Use the same gaming engine more than once.
    5. Add LOTS of guns (along with the ability to actually KILL people).
    6. First Person Perspective.
    7. Replace robots with actual soldiers.
    8. Make storylines that don't look like a 3-year-old wrote them.
    9. EVERY F**KING THING ELSE!

    Because seriously, every new games contends for Worst Game of the Year. Most people would agree with that statement.
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    Post by Phantom July 10th 2009, 5:36 pm

    I once read "The Science of Sonic," which describes in detail the strengths of the "classic" games and the weaknesses of the modern games, and as a student of game design I tended to agree with them because they worked in favor of the player and rewarded rather than punished for taking a risk.

    I am a self-proclaimed "idrealist," looking at how things are now and figuring out how they can improve. Everyone has their own ideas about what Sonic can and can not do, but in the end there is a clearly defined set of logic that Sonic as a character and as a game series is destined to obey (e.g. Sonic runs really fast and uses his own body as a weapon against robot hordes in a vibrant and cartoony environment).

    To Independence, I'd like to ask him to lighten up a bit; this is Sonic we're talking about, not the average "mature" first-person shooter. Sonic has an identity that is all his own and trying to change it all so it fits alongside Halo or Half-Life will not work. Giving Sonic guns and forcing him on a deadly rampage against human soldiers is not very Sonic at all (and considering how often that's been done before in games, how rewarding would it be?). The big problem is that recently that identity has been obscured by plots and gameplay devices that are decidedly un-Sonic. Though I'm a big believer in the potential for storytelling in games, even I'm willing to accept stories that refuse to take themselves seriously (but yes, even I would change most of the dialogue and plot in games like Heroes or Unleashed). Mediocrity does not--and should not--have to be a part of any games, especially games in any certain series.

    Though the points mentioned by Zezima are ones that I agree with, I can sum it all up like this: to stick to the internal logic of Sonic that has been laid down since day one, and never to work against the player (challenge the player, don't defeat him).
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    Post by Erazor July 10th 2009, 5:36 pm

    Because these topics always work out so well at Sega.
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    Post by Independence76 July 10th 2009, 6:07 pm

    Phantom wrote:
    To Independence, I'd like to ask him to lighten up a bit; this is Sonic we're talking about, not the average "mature" first-person shooter. Sonic has an identity that is all his own and trying to change it all so it fits alongside Halo or Half-Life will not work. Giving Sonic guns and forcing him on a deadly rampage against human soldiers is not very Sonic at all (and considering how often that's been done before in games, how rewarding would it be?). The big problem is that recently that identity has been obscured by plots and gameplay devices that are decidedly un-Sonic. Though I'm a big believer in the potential for storytelling in games, even I'm willing to accept stories that refuse to take themselves seriously (but yes, even I would change most of the dialogue and plot in games like Heroes or Unleashed). Mediocrity does not--and should not--have to be a part of any games, especially games in any certain series.

    Yes, I'm talking about Sonic. To the wide gaming community, it's just a series of kids games. If they want to actually make an image for themselves, they have to get real. The Sonic there is now was kinda cool in 1999, but no longer. You see, major upgrades need to be made to even add a slight bit of dignity. Rampages will not make up the games by themselves, as any smart gamer would know that. There needs to be a plot, character development, fun gameplay, and unique environments. However, Sega doesn't know what they are doing.

    In short, the entire series needs an overhaul of massive proportions. I don't see that happening.
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    Post by Auflodern July 10th 2009, 6:23 pm

    1.Make it less kiddy
    2.PLATFORMING!
    3.humans as enemies as well
    4.more of an orchestral/rock soundtrack not just one or the other
    (this)
    5.maybe an air combat arcade main game like you could play as tails for like a couple of missions in the air
    6.gameplay like sa1 or 2
    7.appeal to much older audience
    8.LESS MAX SPEED MORE PLATFORMING
    9.did I say platforming yet?
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    Post by sykog July 10th 2009, 6:54 pm

    For 3D games:
    1 Sonic Adventure 1/2 like storyline
    2 Sonic Battle/Adventure characters (their personalities)
    3 more screentime for Tails, less for shadow
    4 Knux on Angel Island most of the time
    5 No Dash Panels in levels
    6 More Platforming
    7 Mostly Sonic's Adventure like gameplay, just with a few twists

    Those are main things
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    Post by Crystal Chaotix 3 July 10th 2009, 7:26 pm

    Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.
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    Post by Independence76 July 10th 2009, 7:34 pm

    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.
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    Post by Crystal Chaotix 3 July 10th 2009, 7:38 pm

    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.
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    Post by Super Racer Z July 11th 2009, 8:36 am

    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:
    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.

    Don't lose spirit in the games. Instead, just lose all hope of the fandom actually becoming smart and productive, like I have. Minus the few who actually go deeply into their ideas, spend time thinking it over, explain them very well, and double check spelling and grammar unless they are very good at getting it right the first time.
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    Post by Crystal Chaotix 3 July 11th 2009, 12:32 pm

    Super Racer Z wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:
    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.

    Don't lose spirit in the games. Instead, just lose all hope of the fandom actually becoming smart and productive, like I have. Minus the few who actually go deeply into their ideas, spend time thinking it over, explain them very well, and double check spelling and grammar unless they are very good at getting it right the first time.

    Yeah I know. It's just the idea that we have more of these kinds of debates and harsh comments and what not then probably any other franchise that sometimes makes it feel like liking Sonic is a wrong thing even though it's not.

    I'm not asking anyone to stop though.
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    Post by The Freedom Fighter July 11th 2009, 1:23 pm

    Super Racer Z wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:
    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.

    Don't lose spirit in the games. Instead, just lose all hope of the fandom actually becoming smart and productive, like I have. Minus the few who actually go deeply into their ideas, spend time thinking it over, explain them very well, and double check spelling and grammar unless they are very good at getting it right the first time.
    No, don't lose hope in the fandom. Instead, do what you can to help the fandom become the intelligent, productive people you want them to be.
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    Post by Erazor July 11th 2009, 2:00 pm

    The Freedom Fighter wrote:
    Super Racer Z wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:
    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.

    Don't lose spirit in the games. Instead, just lose all hope of the fandom actually becoming smart and productive, like I have. Minus the few who actually go deeply into their ideas, spend time thinking it over, explain them very well, and double check spelling and grammar unless they are very good at getting it right the first time.
    No, don't lose hope in the fandom. Instead, do what you can to help the fandom become the intelligent, productive people you want them to be.
    I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.
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    Post by The Freedom Fighter July 11th 2009, 6:23 pm

    Erazor wrote:
    The Freedom Fighter wrote:
    Super Racer Z wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:
    Independence76 wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:Just another topic that attracts a bunch of harsh negativity.

    Constructive criticism is required.

    I know that. I'm not an idiot.

    I haven't seen anything that looked like constructive criticism so far (not talking about Zezima's post. That was true.)

    Besides, this is pretty much my opinion on all these kinds of topics now. You get into Sonic and then there's always someone or something trying to slam you with a whole bunch of negative stuff and viewpoints and it pecks at you until you've pretty much lost the spirit when it comes to the games.

    Don't lose spirit in the games. Instead, just lose all hope of the fandom actually becoming smart and productive, like I have. Minus the few who actually go deeply into their ideas, spend time thinking it over, explain them very well, and double check spelling and grammar unless they are very good at getting it right the first time.
    No, don't lose hope in the fandom. Instead, do what you can to help the fandom become the intelligent, productive people you want them to be.
    I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.
    Yes I have. And they can be saved. The problem only exists if those who can stop it don't. That is why SOA is so overrun. It's not impossible; it's quite doable.
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    Post by Independence76 July 11th 2009, 6:28 pm

    Erazor wrote:I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.

    Agreed.

    I lost hope a long time ago for the games as well as the community, hence the reason why I'm so critical of it.

    I also hate the Sega boards because I see one question repeated over again and again.

    Present day...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    3 days later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    5 says later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    4 days later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    They're all idiots who don't care about other threads that keep failing and have mixed votes and then go on to ask ANOTHER question that has sparked flame wars in the past. I've never seen a forum so stupid.

    They're hopeless, and so are the games.
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    Post by sykog July 11th 2009, 6:36 pm

    Independence76 wrote:
    Erazor wrote:I've already lost hope in the fandom because that's impossible. Have you looked at the Sega boards recently? I swear they have to be fresh out of kindergarten or something they're so damn stupid.

    Agreed.

    I lost hope a long time ago for the games as well as the community, hence the reason why I'm so critical of it.

    I also hate the Sega boards because I see one question repeated over again and again.

    Present day...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    3 days later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    5 says later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    4 days later...

    "Who's your favorite Hedgehog?"

    They're all idiots who don't care about other threads that keep failing and have mixed votes and then go on to ask ANOTHER question that has sparked flame wars in the past. I've never seen a forum so stupid.

    They're hopeless, and so are the games.
    You forgot: "Should Silver/Shadow have their own game?"
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    Post by Crystal Chaotix 3 July 11th 2009, 7:23 pm

    The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

    But I know the games aren't at all hopeless.

    All the reception and critical nonsense may stay the same but at least I can still play the games and know this.
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    Post by Erazor July 11th 2009, 7:34 pm

    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

    But I know the games aren't at all hopeless.

    All the reception and critical nonsense may stay the same but at least I can still play the games and know this.
    Keep in mind, all this "critical nonsense" is coming from us no good Americans. The series isn't as poorly received as the American gaming media would like you to think it is.
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    Post by Independence76 July 11th 2009, 7:37 pm

    Erazor wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.

    But I know the games aren't at all hopeless.

    All the reception and critical nonsense may stay the same but at least I can still play the games and know this.
    Keep in mind, all this "critical nonsense" is coming from us no good Americans. The series isn't as poorly received as the American gaming media would like you to think it is.

    I'm American, and I'm very critical of things. I hate most American things and especially movies.

    However, Sonic is Japanese, Americanized by the most evil corporation on the face of the planet: 4Kids. The games are not fun anymore, the characters were only cool in 1999, and it's time to move on. I can't take the games seriously.
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    Post by The Freedom Fighter July 11th 2009, 7:49 pm

    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.
    That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.
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    Post by Independence76 July 11th 2009, 7:50 pm

    The Freedom Fighter wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.
    That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

    I really don't see that in people.
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    Post by Crystal Chaotix 3 July 11th 2009, 7:54 pm

    The Freedom Fighter wrote:
    Crystal Chaotix 3 wrote:The fanbase will most likely remain the way it is due to the fact that humans are humans.
    That isn't much of an excuse. There are good people in the world after all. I feel people are basically good, I've seen good in them, and, despite what darkness haunts them, I know they can be good and kind.

    I never said anything about the fanbase being all bad or that kind of nonsense. Of course there's good in them. Not everyone in this fanbase are complete and total idiots who like to argue and curse each other out. The positive and good hearted stuff is also what makes humans, humans.

    It's like you're speaking as if you're not apart of the fanbase. Because I know it's in you. That's for sure.

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