The ancient lands.


    20th Anniversary

    Poll

    What would you hope for in Sonic's 20th Anniversary?

    [ 52 ]
    20th Anniversary Bar_le1144%20th Anniversary Bar_ri11 [44%] 
    [ 33 ]
    20th Anniversary Bar_le1128%20th Anniversary Bar_ri11 [28%] 
    [ 18 ]
    20th Anniversary Bar_le1115%20th Anniversary Bar_ri11 [15%] 
    [ 15 ]
    20th Anniversary Bar_le1113%20th Anniversary Bar_ri11 [13%] 

    Total Votes: 118
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 13th 2011, 6:07 pm

    I know we are getting Sonic Generations. That is not the basis of this topic. If the game was unannounced and we were debating what the game should be for the 20th Anniversary, what would you hope for?

    I would have wanted a properly made SA3 over this Generations stuff any day.
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    Post by Hushimo on June 13th 2011, 6:15 pm

    A release of Sonic Adventure 2 for the PS360's online market, and for original material, something along the lines of Ashura: Dark Reign, a first-person perspective Sonic game with little to no dialogue.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 13th 2011, 6:18 pm

    Actually another remake of SA2 with full online capabilities would have been great for me as well.
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    Post by SonicFanPS2 on June 13th 2011, 7:38 pm

    Generations sounds fine. It's a mix of new and old levels, and you're actually getting twice the amount of levels(albeit same settings) because of the two Sonics. Actually, it reminds me of how Unleashed went, but this should be better.
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    Post by GreenHills4Ever on June 13th 2011, 8:13 pm

    I can't Decide,Each one sounds AWESOME! :D
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    Post by Phantom on June 13th 2011, 8:39 pm

    I'm fine with Generations, and I really don't want to get into the debate about a Sonic Adventure 3.
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    Post by karkooshy on June 14th 2011, 1:49 am

    Really want a modern game with shadow as a playable character! xD
    That said, Generations looks awesome and I think it's a suitable 20th anniversary game.. since it basically sums up all of sonic's history... the fact that they mentioned shadow would be in generations could either mean he's a boss or an unlockable character... the latter being highly unlikely >.<


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    Post by Auflodern on June 14th 2011, 12:35 pm

    I'd like to see this series finally put to rest
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 14th 2011, 1:17 pm

    Auflodern wrote:I'd like to see this series finally put to rest

    You mean SA3?

    By the way, just because I put "A Sonic Adventure game" as a poll choice, this does not mean the game HAS to be Sonic Adventure 3. It just means a game similar to SA2 and STH06 (obviously made right this time).
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    Post by Auflodern on June 14th 2011, 2:32 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Auflodern wrote:I'd like to see this series finally put to rest

    You mean SA3?

    By the way, just because I put "A Sonic Adventure game" as a poll choice, this does not mean the game HAS to be Sonic Adventure 3. It just means a game similar to SA2 and STH06 (obviously made right this time).

    No, I mean for Sega to stop milking the oldest, sickest and dumbest cow on the farm
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    Post by Hushimo on June 14th 2011, 5:01 pm

    Auflodern wrote:No, I mean for Sega to stop milking the oldest, sickest and dumbest cow on the farm

    If you're not going to support your antagonism with facts or something remotely reasonable get out. That's blatant flame-bait and your last warning. At least try to make a cohesive argument, not "Sonic sux nao!"
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    Post by Auflodern on June 14th 2011, 5:28 pm

    Hushimo wrote:
    Auflodern wrote:No, I mean for Sega to stop milking the oldest, sickest and dumbest cow on the farm

    If you're not going to support your antagonism with facts or something remotely reasonable get out. That's blatant flame-bait and your last warning. At least try to make a cohesive argument, not "Sonic sux nao!"

    I'm just saying that at least they could innovate more than, "now he runs! Faster!" or "Now he runs! With powers!"

    truly if I were in charge I'd fire present day Sonic Team and get new developers that know what the fans want. All they want is a Sonic Adventure type game that isn't rushed out the door to make the holidays
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 15th 2011, 9:08 am

    Auflodern wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:

    You mean SA3?

    By the way, just because I put "A Sonic Adventure game" as a poll choice, this does not mean the game HAS to be Sonic Adventure 3. It just means a game similar to SA2 and STH06 (obviously made right this time).

    No, I mean for Sega to stop milking the oldest, sickest and dumbest cow on the farm

    Actually, that's what Nintendo does with Mario. At least I can claim one positive about Sonic Team: they try new things (Unleashed, Sonic 4, storybook series, Adventure 2 are all very different games).

    Nintendo doesn't. They milk practically all of their series.

    However, I do agree with your last post. All I want is another Adventure game. That game had a profound impact upon my liking to Sonic that no other game gave me. But even so, it can still be made differently. SA1 and SA2 have very different stories and domains of playing that don't represent "milking."

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    Post by Auflodern on June 15th 2011, 10:06 am

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Auflodern wrote:

    No, I mean for Sega to stop milking the oldest, sickest and dumbest cow on the farm

    Actually, that's what Nintendo does with Mario. At least I can claim one positive about Sonic Team: they try new things (Unleashed, Sonic 4, storybook series, Adventure 2 are all very different games).

    Nintendo doesn't. They milk practically all of their series.

    However, I do agree with your last post. All I want is another Adventure game. That game had a profound impact upon my liking to Sonic that no other game gave me. But even so, it can still be made differently. SA1 and SA2 have very different stories and domains of playing that don't represent "milking."


    I totally agree mate, without nostalgia factoring in Nintendo and subsequently Mario would be long dead.
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    Post by SonicFanPS2 on June 16th 2011, 9:14 am

    Auflodern wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:

    Actually, that's what Nintendo does with Mario. At least I can claim one positive about Sonic Team: they try new things (Unleashed, Sonic 4, storybook series, Adventure 2 are all very different games).

    Nintendo doesn't. They milk practically all of their series.

    However, I do agree with your last post. All I want is another Adventure game. That game had a profound impact upon my liking to Sonic that no other game gave me. But even so, it can still be made differently. SA1 and SA2 have very different stories and domains of playing that don't represent "milking."


    I totally agree mate, without nostalgia factoring in Nintendo and subsequently Mario would be long dead.

    I actually don't think that's really the case. Sure, they don't do anything truly mind blowing, but they do try new things. I think a good case of that would be Super Mario Galaxy 2, or even the new Skyward Sword with the sword slices. And even if there wasn't any nostalgia involved, people would still like Nintendo's franchises. They're famous for what they do because they do it well.

    With Sonic, he's alright. I still find his games fun. Sonic Team does experiment with him, but what they do at times is hit or miss.
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    Post by Auflodern on June 16th 2011, 9:41 am

    SonicFanPS2 wrote:
    With Sonic, he's alright. I still find his games fun. Sonic Team does experiment with him, but what they do at times is hit or miss.

    Sonic Team is like the old fart on a baseball team that they only kept around because he got a few home runs here and there and whines whenever the coach tries to fire him.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 16th 2011, 8:24 pm

    Sonic Team implements far more ideas than Nintendo does with Mario.

    Fpr example, we have Mario kart, we have MK64, MK DS, Mario Kart DD, Mario Kart Advance, Mario Kart Wii. All of these games are based on the same concept and are simply created every new generation for income, because fans buy into the media. Even with Galaxy and Mario 64, the concept of saving Princess Peach remains status quo (and the game play is quite similar within the games).

    In Sonic, racing is different. Maybe the games aren't as great or detailed as Mario's, but they offer different concepts besides one. There's Sonic car racing, Sonic on hover boards, Sonic on foot, etc. And the Adventure series has far more of a story than saving a princess, or facing Robotnik each time. There's always been another villain that swoops in and somehow alters the story. It's not centered completely on Bowser/Peach.

    Maybe you don't think Sonic games are as high quality as Mario games, and you could be right. Maybe the game play isn't as good either. But one thing for sure that guarantees Sonic over Mario is that Sonic games have much more originality and creativity to generate new concepts. You can thank Sega and Sonic Team for that.
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    Post by Auflodern on June 16th 2011, 9:26 pm

    True, we wouldn't get far without innovation

    now.. let's get back on topic!
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    Post by SonicFanPS2 on June 17th 2011, 8:47 am

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:Sonic Team implements far more ideas than Nintendo does with Mario.

    Fpr example, we have Mario kart, we have MK64, MK DS, Mario Kart DD, Mario Kart Advance, Mario Kart Wii. All of these games are based on the same concept and are simply created every new generation for income, because fans buy into the media. Even with Galaxy and Mario 64, the concept of saving Princess Peach remains status quo (and the game play is quite similar within the games).

    In Sonic, racing is different. Maybe the games aren't as great or detailed as Mario's, but they offer different concepts besides one. There's Sonic car racing, Sonic on hover boards, Sonic on foot, etc. And the Adventure series has far more of a story than saving a princess, or facing Robotnik each time. There's always been another villain that swoops in and somehow alters the story. It's not centered completely on Bowser/Peach.

    Maybe you don't think Sonic games are as high quality as Mario games, and you could be right. Maybe the game play isn't as good either. But one thing for sure that guarantees Sonic over Mario is that Sonic games have much more originality and creativity to generate new concepts. You can thank Sega and Sonic Team for that.

    I'm not trying to say that Sonic games are worse than Mario games, or vice versa. While Sonic may experiment with more concepts than Mario does, it doesn't mean that the Mario games lack in "originality and creativity". The Super Mario series were one of the first to have a 3D platforming game. They've even played with the concept of battling in RPGs. It's not just turn-based; they came up with timed button pressing that you can still see in Mario and Luigi.

    While Sonic's messed around with platforming and racing gameplay as well as some other genres, Mario has, too. And for the record, he's been credited for starting the Kart racing genre, and has played around with other genres, too. Like in the sports genre, you've got tennis, golf, soccer, baseball, and even basketball. Mario's also got his mini-games, his puzzle games(Dr. Mario, Mario vs. Donkey Kong), etc. Oh, and Super Paper Mario, which had RPG elements, but played like a platformer. In the game, Mario could switch between two different dimensions: 2D and 3D.

    And not only in other genres, but Nintendo messed around with different suits that give Mario different powers, so that they can put him in different settings that suit those powers. There's the Cloud suit, the suit, Tanuki suit, Honeybee suit, Frog suit, Spring suit, Boo suit, Penguin suit, etc. And those are just suits; what about power-ups(which the suits are as well, I think) like the Fire Flower, the Ice Flower, or even the Mini Mushroom? Even Yoshi has had power ups or different forms in Super Mario World and Super Mario Galaxy 2, like Blue Yoshi who could fly when eating a shell. Or the Yoshi that runs really fast after eating (is it?) a chili pepper? And let's not forget how Mario played with water in Super Mario Sunshine. They make small, but noticeable changes to his famous platforming because they don't want to mess up a winning formula. Not to mention the length; there are 50+ levels(I just counted...I missed a lot, I think...counting palaces and the Star Road stages, but not the Special Stages) in Super Mario World, and that's pitting a game from 1990 to a games in the Sonic series, which usually have 20+ levels.

    And lastly, there's the story. I think it was right for you to criticize the story, because there really isn't much to the story in the Mario series(barring just the RPGs, I think). You're right, it's Bowser kidnaps Peach to make him his bride. But what of it? The Mario series has never been famous for its stories. It's famous for its gameplay. The constant kidnapping serves as a call to action for Mario, and is what starts his adventures. And some stories are actually quite satisfying; in Super Paper Mario, sure, we saw Bowser kidnap Peach again. But this time(SPOILERS), Bowser actually succeeds in his plot to marry Peach(END SPOILERS)! But we saw a sad love story unfold in that game, too! There's also the side story with Rosalina in Super Mario Galaxy, or how (Spoilers again) Bowser's son is the one who kidnaps Peach in Super Mario Sunshine(End Spoilers...again)!

    So, what I'm really trying to say here is that the Mario series DOES show originality and creativity(up to par with Sonic), even if it isn't seen as easily as Sonic's games. Also, sorry if it was way off-topic. That was a long rant, too, wasn't it?
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    Post by Sonic Chao on June 17th 2011, 4:12 pm

    Maybe a remake of Sonic Adventure 2?

    Yes, that would be awesome. Although, I'm fine with Sonic Generations.
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    Post by The Freedom Fighter on June 17th 2011, 8:28 pm

    Just to take on the tangent SonicFanPS2 brought up, I agree, and all that power-up stuff you mentioned is awesome. But if you look at the series now, it's kind of abandoned all that great stuff. You look at something like New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and it's got six power-ups and very occasionally Yoshi will show up.

    Now, Nintendo has shown massive potential, especially in other game franchises. But for Mario, they're slacking. Maybe even holding themselves back. Like their stories, the power-up situation, and just the minor details that would make the games feel more complete.

    Whereas Sonic is improving in that. To be truthful, Sonic does its best to excel in every field. Better graphics at every turn, better stories (and considering the Your Mileage May Vary opinion of Sonic stories, that's saying something), better characters, and arguably better gameplay and music.


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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 18th 2011, 8:05 am

    SonicFanPS2 wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:Sonic Team implements far more ideas than Nintendo does with Mario.

    Fpr example, we have Mario kart, we have MK64, MK DS, Mario Kart DD, Mario Kart Advance, Mario Kart Wii. All of these games are based on the same concept and are simply created every new generation for income, because fans buy into the media. Even with Galaxy and Mario 64, the concept of saving Princess Peach remains status quo (and the game play is quite similar within the games).

    In Sonic, racing is different. Maybe the games aren't as great or detailed as Mario's, but they offer different concepts besides one. There's Sonic car racing, Sonic on hover boards, Sonic on foot, etc. And the Adventure series has far more of a story than saving a princess, or facing Robotnik each time. There's always been another villain that swoops in and somehow alters the story. It's not centered completely on Bowser/Peach.

    Maybe you don't think Sonic games are as high quality as Mario games, and you could be right. Maybe the game play isn't as good either. But one thing for sure that guarantees Sonic over Mario is that Sonic games have much more originality and creativity to generate new concepts. You can thank Sega and Sonic Team for that.

    I'm not trying to say that Sonic games are worse than Mario games, or vice versa. While Sonic may experiment with more concepts than Mario does, it doesn't mean that the Mario games lack in "originality and creativity". The Super Mario series were one of the first to have a 3D platforming game. They've even played with the concept of battling in RPGs. It's not just turn-based; they came up with timed button pressing that you can still see in Mario and Luigi.

    While Sonic's messed around with platforming and racing gameplay as well as some other genres, Mario has, too. And for the record, he's been credited for starting the Kart racing genre, and has played around with other genres, too. Like in the sports genre, you've got tennis, golf, soccer, baseball, and even basketball. Mario's also got his mini-games, his puzzle games(Dr. Mario, Mario vs. Donkey Kong), etc. Oh, and Super Paper Mario, which had RPG elements, but played like a platformer. In the game, Mario could switch between two different dimensions: 2D and 3D.

    And not only in other genres, but Nintendo messed around with different suits that give Mario different powers, so that they can put him in different settings that suit those powers. There's the Cloud suit, the suit, Tanuki suit, Honeybee suit, Frog suit, Spring suit, Boo suit, Penguin suit, etc. And those are just suits; what about power-ups(which the suits are as well, I think) like the Fire Flower, the Ice Flower, or even the Mini Mushroom? Even Yoshi has had power ups or different forms in Super Mario World and Super Mario Galaxy 2, like Blue Yoshi who could fly when eating a shell. Or the Yoshi that runs really fast after eating (is it?) a chili pepper? And let's not forget how Mario played with water in Super Mario Sunshine. They make small, but noticeable changes to his famous platforming because they don't want to mess up a winning formula. Not to mention the length; there are 50+ levels(I just counted...I missed a lot, I think...counting palaces and the Star Road stages, but not the Special Stages) in Super Mario World, and that's pitting a game from 1990 to a games in the Sonic series, which usually have 20+ levels.

    And lastly, there's the story. I think it was right for you to criticize the story, because there really isn't much to the story in the Mario series(barring just the RPGs, I think). You're right, it's Bowser kidnaps Peach to make him his bride. But what of it? The Mario series has never been famous for its stories. It's famous for its gameplay. The constant kidnapping serves as a call to action for Mario, and is what starts his adventures. And some stories are actually quite satisfying; in Super Paper Mario, sure, we saw Bowser kidnap Peach again. But this time(SPOILERS), Bowser actually succeeds in his plot to marry Peach(END SPOILERS)! But we saw a sad love story unfold in that game, too! There's also the side story with Rosalina in Super Mario Galaxy, or how (Spoilers again) Bowser's son is the one who kidnaps Peach in Super Mario Sunshine(End Spoilers...again)!

    So, what I'm really trying to say here is that the Mario series DOES show originality and creativity(up to par with Sonic), even if it isn't seen as easily as Sonic's games. Also, sorry if it was way off-topic. That was a long rant, too, wasn't it?

    I realize Mario originally came up with many concepts, but the point is that Nintendo keeps reinforcing the same concepts set in place. At this day, Mario Kart is no longer original, and no more original than Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, etc. (The Freedom Fighter got this one right completely)

    The suits did add a bit more innovation to the series, but these are such a small sample size in a series that is widely repetitive in nearly every other means.

    As for Super Mario Sunshine, I completely agree with you. It is probably the most innovative Mario game I've seen yet. However, it is also the one that strays most against the series, and it becomes more about the squirt nozzle than it does Mario. But it is original, there's no debate there.

    Like I said, Mario probably wins in gameplay when facing Sonic likely because jumping is an easier task than running at a super speed. Nonetheless, I don't find Sonic's gameplay bad at all, and certainly Sonic's originality is far greater in my opinion.
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    Post by SonicFanPS2 on June 18th 2011, 10:31 am

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    SonicFanPS2 wrote:

    I'm not trying to say that Sonic games are worse than Mario games, or vice versa. While Sonic may experiment with more concepts than Mario does, it doesn't mean that the Mario games lack in "originality and creativity". The Super Mario series were one of the first to have a 3D platforming game. They've even played with the concept of battling in RPGs. It's not just turn-based; they came up with timed button pressing that you can still see in Mario and Luigi.

    While Sonic's messed around with platforming and racing gameplay as well as some other genres, Mario has, too. And for the record, he's been credited for starting the Kart racing genre, and has played around with other genres, too. Like in the sports genre, you've got tennis, golf, soccer, baseball, and even basketball. Mario's also got his mini-games, his puzzle games(Dr. Mario, Mario vs. Donkey Kong), etc. Oh, and Super Paper Mario, which had RPG elements, but played like a platformer. In the game, Mario could switch between two different dimensions: 2D and 3D.

    And not only in other genres, but Nintendo messed around with different suits that give Mario different powers, so that they can put him in different settings that suit those powers. There's the Cloud suit, the suit, Tanuki suit, Honeybee suit, Frog suit, Spring suit, Boo suit, Penguin suit, etc. And those are just suits; what about power-ups(which the suits are as well, I think) like the Fire Flower, the Ice Flower, or even the Mini Mushroom? Even Yoshi has had power ups or different forms in Super Mario World and Super Mario Galaxy 2, like Blue Yoshi who could fly when eating a shell. Or the Yoshi that runs really fast after eating (is it?) a chili pepper? And let's not forget how Mario played with water in Super Mario Sunshine. They make small, but noticeable changes to his famous platforming because they don't want to mess up a winning formula. Not to mention the length; there are 50+ levels(I just counted...I missed a lot, I think...counting palaces and the Star Road stages, but not the Special Stages) in Super Mario World, and that's pitting a game from 1990 to a games in the Sonic series, which usually have 20+ levels.

    And lastly, there's the story. I think it was right for you to criticize the story, because there really isn't much to the story in the Mario series(barring just the RPGs, I think). You're right, it's Bowser kidnaps Peach to make him his bride. But what of it? The Mario series has never been famous for its stories. It's famous for its gameplay. The constant kidnapping serves as a call to action for Mario, and is what starts his adventures. And some stories are actually quite satisfying; in Super Paper Mario, sure, we saw Bowser kidnap Peach again. But this time(SPOILERS), Bowser actually succeeds in his plot to marry Peach(END SPOILERS)! But we saw a sad love story unfold in that game, too! There's also the side story with Rosalina in Super Mario Galaxy, or how (Spoilers again) Bowser's son is the one who kidnaps Peach in Super Mario Sunshine(End Spoilers...again)!

    So, what I'm really trying to say here is that the Mario series DOES show originality and creativity(up to par with Sonic), even if it isn't seen as easily as Sonic's games. Also, sorry if it was way off-topic. That was a long rant, too, wasn't it?

    I realize Mario originally came up with many concepts, but the point is that Nintendo keeps reinforcing the same concepts set in place. At this day, Mario Kart is no longer original, and no more original than Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, etc. (The Freedom Fighter got this one right completely)

    The suits did add a bit more innovation to the series, but these are such a small sample size in a series that is widely repetitive in nearly every other means.

    As for Super Mario Sunshine, I completely agree with you. It is probably the most innovative Mario game I've seen yet. However, it is also the one that strays most against the series, and it becomes more about the squirt nozzle than it does Mario. But it is original, there's no debate there.

    Like I said, Mario probably wins in gameplay when facing Sonic likely because jumping is an easier task than running at a super speed. Nonetheless, I don't find Sonic's gameplay bad at all, and certainly Sonic's originality is far greater in my opinion.

    Well, it never hurts to experiment, and I do agree with you; Sonic's gameplay is fine. I was just trying to say that the(well, I said it already...) "Mario series DOES show originality and creativity".

    I was also just wondering, but when you said, "a small sample size in a series that is widely repetitive in nearly every other means.", did you mean things like the music, platforming, characters, etc.?

    Jmh
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    Post by Jmh on June 19th 2011, 1:29 pm

    Generations is fine.
    Sonic Adventure 2
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on June 20th 2011, 9:34 pm

    SonicFanPS2 wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:

    I realize Mario originally came up with many concepts, but the point is that Nintendo keeps reinforcing the same concepts set in place. At this day, Mario Kart is no longer original, and no more original than Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, etc. (The Freedom Fighter got this one right completely)

    The suits did add a bit more innovation to the series, but these are such a small sample size in a series that is widely repetitive in nearly every other means.

    As for Super Mario Sunshine, I completely agree with you. It is probably the most innovative Mario game I've seen yet. However, it is also the one that strays most against the series, and it becomes more about the squirt nozzle than it does Mario. But it is original, there's no debate there.

    Like I said, Mario probably wins in gameplay when facing Sonic likely because jumping is an easier task than running at a super speed. Nonetheless, I don't find Sonic's gameplay bad at all, and certainly Sonic's originality is far greater in my opinion.

    Well, it never hurts to experiment, and I do agree with you; Sonic's gameplay is fine. I was just trying to say that the(well, I said it already...) "Mario series DOES show originality and creativity".

    I was also just wondering, but when you said, "a small sample size in a series that is widely repetitive in nearly every other means.", did you mean things like the music, platforming, characters, etc.?


    When I mentioned a small sample size, I as indicating that while the suits (like the bee suit), or even the upside down (galaxy) gameplay offer new concepts to the Mario games, they are rarely used in the game and only temporarily change Mario. Yet, they aren't significant enough to drastically change the plot (unlike the werehog or Super Sonic which changes both Sonic and the whole way the game is played).

    I despise Unleashed (it's one of my least favorite games), but it has a ton of originality in it. The werehog is a form that changes the gameplay and the story drastically. Mario's changes don't do as much, leaving the gameplay static like every other Mario game. The suit changes and gravity alter the gameplay and controls little, and have such a small significance to the overall plot.


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