The religion thread: Attempt...Trois? (I forget.)

Indeed. It's that topic everyone can talk about, even the people who don't technically have one. If you're not living in an uncharted area where the inhabitants are many thousands of years behind the times, you've heard of religion, and, purely statistically, likely even have one. Discuss it here.

What's yours?

Mine's still atheist. Why? There's not a miracle that's happened that enough science can't explain logically.

Mly wrote:Indeed. It's that topic everyone can talk about, even the people who don't technically have one. If you're not living in an uncharted area where the inhabitants are many thousands of years behind the times, you've heard of religion, and, purely statistically, likely even have one. Discuss it here.

Seems like those would be the people most likey to genuinely believe in religion.

Erazor wrote:Seems like those would be the people most likey to genuinely believe in religion.

Holy blessed carp, it's Erazor! Anywizards, rep for that comment.

Hushimo wrote:

Erazor wrote:Seems like those would be the people most likey to genuinely believe in religion.

Holy blessed carp, it's Erazor! Anywizards, rep for that comment.

Yep, I'm back. And atheist (to stay on topic).

Erazor wrote:Seems like those would be the people most likey to genuinely believe in religion.

I meant that to mean that they're so far behind the times that they've yet to conceive of religion. But you have a point.

I'm Christian... *and a minority in this thread with that*

I'm a Christian. Lutheran, to be exact.

I believe in God and Christ, but I don't know if I should call myself a Christian seeing that I act nothing like a modern day Christian.

Jmh wrote:I believe in God and Christ, but I don't know if I should call myself a Christian seeing that I act nothing like a modern day Christian.

So what exactly do you understand under "modern day christian?"

Let's try to prod discussion along from simple stating of what our religions are and try to stir up a good ol' fashioned debate. I think I know just the question to spark it:

Why do you believe in your religion? What makes you so sure that it's right and nothing else is? If you'll look back, I've already answered this question for my case.

Mly wrote:Let's try to prod discussion along from simple stating of what our religions are and try to stir up a good ol' fashioned debate. I think I know just the question to spark it:

Why do you believe in your religion? What makes you so sure that it's right and nothing else is? If you'll look back, I've already answered this question for my case.

Why I believe? There are multiple reasons for that... first of all, because my parents are Christian too... but that answer's a bit cheap, dontcha think? Well, I've asked myself this question more than once... why do I believe? Why is it Christianity that is the right one? I mean, why wouldn't the Islam be the right way?

My answer on the first question is simply because no-one can prove that God doesn't exist. Granted, Christians cannot prove God's existance, but since my parents raised me as a Christian, I'm on that side and will stay there until God is proven to not exist.

On the second one, I still have to find a clear answer. Some say because Jesus Christ is humble, unlike all the other Gods from other religions. I find that a bit weak... it's one thing that makes a difference between Christianity and other religions. However, muslims could very well claim that, because they have only ONE prophet, their religion is the right one... But that's why I live right? To either receive the answer on my questions in the rest of my life, or die and having them answered by God himself...

also...

It's better to have lived as a Christian and eventually find out God doesn't exist, than not live as a Christian and find out God does exist...

Speedlion wrote:Why I believe? There are multiple reasons for that... first of all, because my parents are Christian too... but that answer's a bit cheap, dontcha think? Well, I've asked myself this question more than once... why do I believe? Why is it Christianity that is the right one? I mean, why wouldn't the Islam be the right way?

I agree. Using upbringing as an excuse isn't valid. I don't even see why you mentioned it if it isn't a valid reason even to you, however.

My answer on the first question is simply because no-one can prove that God doesn't exist. Granted, Christians cannot prove God's existance, but since my parents raised me as a Christian, I'm on that side and will stay there until God is proven to not exist.

You just used reasoning that you yourself deemed invalid as a crutch.

On the second one, I still have to find a clear answer. Some say because Jesus Christ is humble, unlike all the other Gods from other religions. I find that a bit weak... it's one thing that makes a difference between Christianity and other religions. However, muslims could very well claim that, because they have only ONE prophet, their religion is the right one... But that's why I live right? To either receive the answer on my questions in the rest of my life, or die and having them answered by God himself...

Seeing as you didn't even answer the question, I'll skip a rebuttal to this one.

also...

It's better to have lived as a Christian and eventually find out God doesn't exist, than not live as a Christian and find out God does exist...

Just because there's no flawless way to prove or disprove the existence of any god(s) within the limits of human power, that doesn't mean Pascal was right. Try again.

Speedlion wrote:muslims could very well claim that, because they have only ONE prophet

That's a common mistake a lot of people make. Islam accepts all of the prophets from almost all other Abrahamic religions.
I'm a muslim, and I believe in Jesus; only I believe he is a prophet and not a God. Similarly I believe in Muhammed, Moses, Noah, Joseph...etc.
We believe in only ONE God.

Mly wrote:Why do you believe in your religion? What makes you so sure that it's right and nothing else is? If you'll look back, I've already answered this question for my case.

I believe in islam because I believe that it's the only Abrahmic religion that hasn't had it's holy book edited in any way. :)
But that's skipping a step... in my opinion the debate should have started by discussing the existence of God... I see no point quarreling about which religion is right or wrong if God's existence isn't established.

If we tried to undoubtedly establish whether some god(s) exist(s) we'd never even get to this step, dingbat.

@Holy book editing: Bullcrap. Even if what has been written down has gone unchanged, -- it hasn't, by the way -- extremists continually warp the teachings of the Qur'an, to justify to the moronic public, killings that serve only political agendas. Or, if you're not one of the more conspiracy theory types like me, you must at least admit that the killings happen and if they don't serve a political agenda, they certainly don't serve their religion, and are therefore entirely senseless. What's written down is entirely useless if it's not enforced, and Islamic virtue is not enforced. If it were, the war on terror wouldn't be happening. The argument is therefore moot even assuming it is valid.

Mly wrote:
@Holy book editing: Bullcrap. Even if what has been written down has gone unchanged, -- it hasn't, by the way -- extremists continually warp the teachings of the Qur'an, to justify to the moronic public, killings that serve only political agendas. Or, if you're not one of the more conspiracy theory types like me, you must at least admit that the killings happen and if they don't serve a political agenda, they certainly don't serve their religion, and are therefore entirely senseless. What's written down is entirely useless if it's not enforced, and Islamic virtue is not enforced. If it were, the war on terror wouldn't be happening. The argument is therefore moot even assuming it is valid.

Sad but true. Higher ups in muslim countries aren't exactly giving others a good impression on the religion. Agree with everything you said.
But just because it's not enforced doesn't mean it's not there. Just because the media focuses on the downsides of a religion doesn't mean there aren't people out there that truly believe and enforce it correctly based on faith and not 'political agendas'.

True. However, the silent minority aren't very noteworthy when there's a very loud, very annoying, very trigger-happy majority always stirring up trouble. After all, who's going to cause a noticeable lasting effect on the world: a few good Muslims who don't cause trouble, or an entire political climate full of crazy dictators, wannabe dictators, and all their henchmen who stir up all kinds of foul-smelling crap? The point is again moot.

Mly wrote:However, the silent minority aren't very noteworthy when there's a very loud, very annoying, very trigger-happy majority always stirring up trouble.

Politicians and terrorists don't make up the majority of the millions of muslims world wide. They are however the most attention grabbing...
Still, that's no reason to not believe in a religion. It's all about faith, not politics. i was merely answering your question about why I personally believe in my religion.

This thread is going to turn into a flamewar before five pages.

karkooshy wrote:

Mly wrote:However, the silent minority aren't very noteworthy when there's a very loud, very annoying, very trigger-happy majority always stirring up trouble.

Politicians and terrorists don't make up the majority of the millions of muslims world wide.

Fair enough, I suppose, if it's true. I'll grant that I may have been hasty in assuming they were the majority. However, it's also irrelevant. In addition to what you say in the very next sentence about them being the most attention-grabbing ones, they're also the most effective ones, in the semantically literal meaning of effective. That is, they have the most profound effect on the world.

They are however the most attention grabbing...
Still, that's no reason to not believe in a religion. It's all about faith, not politics. i was merely answering your question about why I personally believe in my religion.

Fair enough. However, the reason you cited -- the Qur'an hasn't been edited in any way and is the only holy text to have such a status -- is false.

Mly wrote:

karkooshy wrote:

Politicians and terrorists don't make up the majority of the millions of muslims world wide.

Fair enough, I suppose, if it's true. I'll grant that I may have been hasty in assuming they were the majority. However, it's also irrelevant. In addition to what you say in the very next sentence about them being the most attention-grabbing ones, they're also the most effective ones, in the semantically literal meaning of effective. That is, they have the most profound effect on the world.

They are however the most attention grabbing...
Still, that's no reason to not believe in a religion. It's all about faith, not politics. i was merely answering your question about why I personally believe in my religion.

Fair enough. However, the reason you cited -- the Qur'an hasn't been edited in any way and is the only holy text to have such a status -- is false.

People always tend to disprove a religion because of it's Holy Book, Qur'An, Bible or other books. People pick on those Books because they try to find (and do find) things that contradict each other, even though both Holy Books state that everything in there is true... and that's purely human... But don't forget that by nitpicking on Books, you don't focus on the message the Book... that is true... of course, every Book has its contradictions...

"BUT GOD (or ALLAH, in karkooshy's case) is perfect!" people say. People then tend to think that their Books have to be perfect because they are... I still have to figure it out completely, and please, if you are able to, I wouldn't mind if you would prove me wrong or if I missed something, but the Books are still written by humans. It's a human book... We don't need to try to prove the words written in there to be wrong, but we need to look at the message that the Book brings..

Even though I'm Christian and don't believe in the Islam, I still don't think that pointing out the contradictions in other religions' Books is not the way to prove the religion wrong...

@Mly, I've read what's on that page. And it's absolute nonsense from where I'm standing.
A translation of surrah number 112 (out of 114):


I've also read the Bukhari's books and they state nothing of what's on that page. The way the Qur'an was handed down to humanity was through angle Gabriel meeting with prophet Muhammed and giving it to him phrase by phrase.
Muhammed- like all prophets- was told when he would die (and before death was given a choice to continue life or die). On his last year alive, the Qur'an was revised thoroughly by him and Gabriel and put into a sequence since the phrases are not listed in chronological order- Islam brought gradual change to the world.

For instance, Islam forbids wine; in a phrase from the Qur'an it is stated that muslims shouldn't drink before prayers, in another it is stated muslims shouldn't drink between prayers and must wait until all prayers are done for the day, in another it is stated that muslims shouldn't drink at all. (Notice; nothing actually allows drinking- ultimately there are no contradictions). But muslims living during the time the first two phrases were handed down were allowed to drink- since nothing at the time explicitly disallowed drinking either.

Another reason in believing in Islam is how congenial it is with modern day science- even though such scientific discoveries were only found out about recently (all from the Qur'an):

The creation of the universe from a singly entity and of life from water:

The expansion of the universe:

The different natures of the sun and the moon:

The sun isn't stationery but moves in a specific direction for a limited time:

Loads of other stuff but memory doesn't serve xD



@Speedlion: We believe the Qur'an is God's words... so finding contradictions in it would be a huge deal for us xP
Also Allah literally means God in arabic... so my god and your god are the same God :)

@ Karkooshy... I know Allah means God... heck, I had to learn about the Islam on school last year... about the history, the traditions all so much more... limited knowledge, I know, but still...

I don't really want to reveal my own religion and I won't bash OR support any other religions shown on this thread. But I'll say this. Even though plenty of kids nowadays are being raising into doing what their parents demand/force them to do, they should be able to decide their own religion. Not have it forced down their throats. Also don't show it off in public and don't make others believe in it unless THEY WANT to. Religion is actually causing much violence nowadays when you look into it. From Muslims to Christians and that "god hates fags" thing I've been seeing to propaganda. People not being able to have friendships or relationships just because of different religious types between the 2 is horrible. People not believing in something just because they cant SEE it isn't a good reason to be honest. I can't see air technically can I? But it exists right? We don't know what happens after death also do we? One religion is heaven or hell another is reincarnation and others believe in there life energy being transferred to earth. Which is it? Do we do one of those or just stare in blackness forever? We don't know what happens after death and that's were most religions believe that is where they will see the beings they worship. After death.

The only religion I really don't like is moonies. That person who claims to be a reincarnation of Jesus should stop and think of the lives he's ruining. They have to sacrifice most wealth just for this one person who could just be lieing or insane and sell flowers or cakes for their living. Their aren't a lot of smart people in the world. And this retard is just taking advantage of their lives and making them worse. Their are people with potential who turned to moonies and they aren't allowed to even use that potential. Also is it true moonies aren't allowed to choose who their allowed to marry or is that incorrect?