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    The "Official" Sonic Canon???

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    Post by NeoMetalSonic on February 26th 2011, 2:03 pm

    I see you're just a child who can't admit he is wrong

    We're no longer having this discussion
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    Post by Jmh on February 26th 2011, 3:40 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    NeoMetalSonic wrote:The "Official" Sonic Canon???  - Page 3 Supersonic
    Are you even reading my posts
    I thought you can't tell sarcasm through the internet
    Was that a lie because there was no sarcasm in my post
    It sounds like you're just trying to make excuses to cover yourself up
    You still haven't tell me why he shouldn't have green eyes since he got them from being Super Sonic thus he should have them in Sonic 4

    Also what did you post since it had nothing to do with this topic

    1. I refuse to play Sonic 4, because of its unhistorical plot line, so I care less what eye color Super Sonic has in it, because it is illogical to the series

    2. When did Super Sonic have green eyes? I'm still missing this point of you. I have never seen Super Sonic with green eyes, though I must admit I have not seen him much in the regular series. I've seen him with black eyes, then when the Adventure series came around, they gave him red eyes in Super form since Sonic Adventure. The Adventure series marked the only change in Sonic that continued throughout; after that there should be no change unless in terms of the older games; Sonic 4 violates this (I have no clue about Super Sonic because I refuse to play it, but if Super Sonic does indeed have green eyes in Sonic 4, it is even more false to the series because Super Sonic has red eyes from Adventure on).

    And even if Super Sonic did have green eyes in the past, you have failed to answer my question: how does this explain a regular green eyed Sonic in Sonic 4 when he is supposed to have black eyes like the original?

    And if Super Sonic's eyes were truly green at the beginning of Sonic 3 and how come he has red eyes now? And hpw does this connect to Sonic 4 violation or the regular Sonic's eye color mishap?

    Lastly, may I presume in saying that Sonic and Super Sonic are two distinct characters of different evolution processes with different eye color history and thus do not connect in this argument.

    There is no logic in the argument at all. You could argue for Sonic alone, but there's no facts that can conclusively prove this. Sega has dug themselves in and made the series illogical by simply switching time zones and eye pigments in Sonic 4, thus ruining any canon there ever was (connection to point #5). This is the point I'm getting across. I don't care about what eye colors there were in the past or that there are now, I simply care about it for the sake of crossing these barriers and ruining once was aesthetic truth.

    3. Show me one instance where Sonic got green eyes from being Super Sonic, because I have not seen a clear game image of Super Sonic having green eyes as a permanent form (and I haven't even seen it as of yet a temporary form; if you do prove this, please refrain from using the unhistoric Sonic 4 as the whole history of Sonic controversy lies in this game).

    If this becomes proven, let it be said that you were right in this case, even though it refutes nothing about the argument as a whole (it's a completely separate topic as I've been saying from the beginning). Let alone, the whole idea of the regular Sonic getting green eyes from Super Sonic makes no sense. They are two separate domains. And it does not explain the unhistorical change in Sonic 4.

    4. You aren't making yourself clear which is why I can't give you a defined answer. You are jumping into an argument that is separate from mine yet claiming it is the same, you aren't writing understandable sentences, and I have not had a single clear question from you. Like I said, your "fake" sarcasm comes time to time and I can't tell if you're taking things seriously or not, or just fooling around in the same way you got yourself in trouble (which apparently wasn't taken wisely as sarcasm from others). If I did understand you, I'd still have an answer similar to the one I have now, which is simply refuting a question without plain facts. May I mention it was a question that does not answer my original question about the eye shift in Sonic 4.

    5. Lastly, Sonic's eye color has to do with the Sonic canon, because we are talking about whether Sonic himself is fit to be canon today after changing his own aesthetic history. This is a clear controversy when talking about a Sonic canon, because it uncertifies all the former Sonic series.

    6. From records I have thus encountered (and not the one you've shown me as that is user created apparently), it appears Super Sonic has a green pigment in Sonic 3 (wouldn't know, never had Super Sonic) from time to time, but it is so small and not there 100% of the time (your above pic shows a Super without them). As stated, this does not prove why there is an eye change in Sonic 4. The original argument is still left for dispute.

    But Super Sonic's green eyes is NOT a constant, and NOT original, as he is made with black eyes here (and I believe in several other games besides Sonic 3): http://www.tssznews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/First_4_Figures_Series_2.png

    And here: http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452033569e20133f2e3099a970b-800wi
    (these are made by Sega by the way)

    And this: http://sonicology.fateback.com/cheats/sonic2-super.png

    I will further try to find more on this if you all want to proceed, but it is an argument separate from the eye color/canon argument.
    .... Do you go by the name Aknotholeresident?
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 26th 2011, 10:00 pm

    NeoMetalSonic wrote:I see you're just a child who can't admit he is wrong

    We're no longer having this discussion

    Well, you were right about the green eyes in Sonic 3 at times. I was wrong about that, although there were times Sonic had black eyes in Sonic 3 as well. I can admit my falseness.

    But I still just don't see how it proves the point I've been trying to make at hand... I should close this argument though. There really is no point continuing.

    No, sorry. I'm not aknotholeresident. My former name however was Ray the Squirrel to some.

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    Post by Schismatist on February 26th 2011, 10:02 pm

    Freaking walls of text that no one reads or smartass one liners with no punctuation, which will win? I'm your host TheSchismatist and I'll be commentating over this wonderful match!
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 27th 2011, 3:24 pm

    Schismatist wrote:Freaking walls of text that no one reads or smartass one liners with no punctuation, which will win? I'm your host TheSchismatist and I'll be commentating over this wonderful match!
    ??? What does this have to do with the topic? And like I said, there's no clear winner of the debate as it is only an answerable question among Sonic Team.

    And trust me, with no punctuation you don't show yourself as "smart." So that kind of defeats the purpose.

    Anyway, we should probably get back on topic. Debate if we must, but talking about a winner without adding any input does not contribute anything useful to the conversation (I'm talking about myself as much as anyone else).
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    Post by Jmh on February 27th 2011, 7:56 pm

    You know what? I feel like putting the final nail in the coffin with the green eyes deal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqdN9ym4I (Go to 00:34)

    It's quite obvious that that's a flashback to Sonic CD. And look what color Sonic's eyes are...
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 27th 2011, 10:32 pm

    Jmh wrote:You know what? I feel like putting the final nail in the coffin with the green eyes deal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqdN9ym4I (Go to 00:34)

    It's quite obvious that that's a flashback to Sonic CD. And look what color Sonic's eyes are...
    That doesn't count really. It's still part of Sonic Adventure. They did the same "mistake" they made in Sonic 4 by putting a "new" Sonic into an old game (this one via a vision). In other words, this is Amy looking back at Sonic CD, but not the actual CD game itself. It's funny how they erase the old Amy out of existence as well.

    Regardless, Sonic shows up countless times black eyed in the past, including the "true" game of Sonic CD.

    Small things like these are why there is no conclusive Sonic canon. Doesn't mean the series is bad, or lacking of gaming fun, it just means it is inconsistent in the plot department (but at least it has a structured plot unlike Mario games).
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    Post by T-Man on February 27th 2011, 11:47 pm

    SA2, did you ever consider that all of the characters have their modern appearances in Sonic 4 because it takes place right before Sonic Adventure?

    Honestly, I can't help but wonder why people care so much about canon in Sonic games anyway. :p
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    Post by Jmh on February 27th 2011, 11:49 pm

    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    Jmh wrote:You know what? I feel like putting the final nail in the coffin with the green eyes deal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqdN9ym4I (Go to 00:34)

    It's quite obvious that that's a flashback to Sonic CD. And look what color Sonic's eyes are...
    That doesn't count really. It's still part of Sonic Adventure. They did the same "mistake" they made in Sonic 4 by putting a "new" Sonic into an old game (this one via a vision). In other words, this is Amy looking back at Sonic CD, but not the actual CD game itself. It's funny how they erase the old Amy out of existence as well.

    Regardless, Sonic shows up countless times black eyed in the past, including the "true" game of Sonic CD.

    Small things like these are why there is no conclusive Sonic canon. Doesn't mean the series is bad, or lacking of gaming fun, it just means it is inconsistent in the plot department (but at least it has a structured plot unlike Mario games).
    But they are the same character. As I said many of times, a changing appearance means nothing more than an update in design. Would you say that Sonic in SA2 was a different Sonic than the one in SA1 or any of the other games because he has soap shoes?
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on February 28th 2011, 8:22 am

    Jmh wrote:
    Sonic Adventure 2 wrote:
    That doesn't count really. It's still part of Sonic Adventure. They did the same "mistake" they made in Sonic 4 by putting a "new" Sonic into an old game (this one via a vision). In other words, this is Amy looking back at Sonic CD, but not the actual CD game itself. It's funny how they erase the old Amy out of existence as well.

    Regardless, Sonic shows up countless times black eyed in the past, including the "true" game of Sonic CD.

    Small things like these are why there is no conclusive Sonic canon. Doesn't mean the series is bad, or lacking of gaming fun, it just means it is inconsistent in the plot department (but at least it has a structured plot unlike Mario games).
    But they are the same character. As I said many of times, a changing appearance means nothing more than an update in design. Would you say that Sonic in SA2 was a different Sonic than the one in SA1 or any of the other games because he has soap shoes?

    As I also said, updating a design is fine with me. But updating a design in a classic game is not fine. That messes with the game's history (Sonic 4, Sonic CD "dream" in Sonic Adventure). The change is very noticeable- Sonic, Eggman, and Amy all change from their original forms even when referenced back to the classics (which makes no sense). There's no point of updating a design in Sonic 4 or Sonic CD when the games take place in an original environment before the update. So yes, the designs have very much meaning in deviating from the original line of Sonic games.

    Anyway, we should probably stop because it's come to the point where I'm repeating myself and there's no common ground, just an unknown question mark Sega can't answer. So why should we be left to answer their problems?

    Anyway, somebody at another forum made a Sonic game family tree. I should try to make another one.
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    Post by TheLordsbeacon on March 3rd 2011, 4:26 am

    I think this is an interesting thread because it gets to the heart of why people become attached to certain stories or "canon". Take movies for instance. How many people think that it would be a good idea to re-boot the batman franchise right now after Heath Ledgers performance as the Joker? My guess is that not many people would like that idea, at least, not for a long time. On the other hand, you don't want to rule out the possibility of a franchise reboot years later when the originals are out of most peoples minds.

    In short, I think canon is a 2 edge sword...On one hand it could be a bad idea, to count out the possibility of a reboot. On the other hand reboots can get out of hand to the point where people end up not caring anymore what happens to the characters.

    I can give you 2 examples of my point. Take the Sonic franchise for example.

    1. A good example of the first extreme is the Sonic games. I think it was expected for the Sonic Team to reboot the Sonic story for the 3D consol generation. It probably wouldn't work to simply re-make the 2D Sonic stories in 3D.--Another example would be Ocarina of Time compared to the original Zelda. In this instance, I don't think anyone would think that the original Zelda story would have worked as it was in it's original form in Ocarina of Time.


    2. The other extreme is, I think, perfectly exemplified by some Japanese anime cartoons. A cartoon series starts, then it ends, then it begins again with the exact same characters, but a completely different story. This cycle can happen several times, until the fan base simply does not care anymore about it.----No offense to any Japanese cartoonists :D

    I'm sure you see my point.
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    Post by Sonic Adventure 2 on March 3rd 2011, 12:16 pm

    TheLordsbeacon wrote:I think this is an interesting thread because it gets to the heart of why people become attached to certain stories or "canon". Take movies for instance. How many people think that it would be a good idea to re-boot the batman franchise right now after Heath Ledgers performance as the Joker? My guess is that not many people would like that idea, at least, not for a long time. On the other hand, you don't want to rule out the possibility of a franchise reboot years later when the originals are out of most peoples minds.

    In short, I think canon is a 2 edge sword...On one hand it could be a bad idea, to count out the possibility of a reboot. On the other hand reboots can get out of hand to the point where people end up not caring anymore what happens to the characters.

    I can give you 2 examples of my point. Take the Sonic franchise for example.

    1. A good example of the first extreme is the Sonic games. I think it was expected for the Sonic Team to reboot the Sonic story for the 3D consol generation. It probably wouldn't work to simply re-make the 2D Sonic stories in 3D.--Another example would be Ocarina of Time compared to the original Zelda. In this instance, I don't think anyone would think that the original Zelda story would have worked as it was in it's original form in Ocarina of Time.


    2. The other extreme is, I think, perfectly exemplified by some Japanese anime cartoons. A cartoon series starts, then it ends, then it begins again with the exact same characters, but a completely different story. This cycle can happen several times, until the fan base simply does not care anymore about it.----No offense to any Japanese cartoonists :D

    I'm sure you see my point.

    There are certain cases where a change of character is okay (as in Batman because there is no other choice), but in terms of a fictional world, characters need to be handled with reason in order to be truly canon.
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    Post by Blue Blur on November 11th 2012, 5:04 pm

    *Blows dust off thread*
    Okay first off I joined this pretty cool community just because I tumbled upon this thread when I myself had questions and doubts on Sonic canon and couldn't help but put my two cents in.

    From my standpoint I see that there is a canon storyline though it is very loose and like most series it has alt universe/spinoff storylines.

    Before I start I'd also like to add on the eye color situation. Though it may not have been declared as true it can be hinted that with consistent exposure to the power of the emeralds, ones eyes will change color which may have led to Sonic's eye color. By all means disregard this example if you don't like the Archie comic plot line but when Knuckles became one with the chaos emeralds his body became completely green. But thats my opinion.

    I believe the beginning of this threads chart has some merit and I'd like to agree with it. I also see that one of you used the fact that just because you don't like the werehog it simply can't be canon. I believe though it had some flaws, Unleashed wasn't all bad and don't see why it can't be canon. It may of even be reason why there is a floating island on mobius which continues to fly due to the master emerald.

    All an all I think giving Sonic canon is a fun thought but it isn't what makes Sonic who he is. Just like Mario. I haven't even begun to think how his games tie into one another but it hasn't taken away from his games.

    I hope you enjoyed my opinion and I look forward to contributing more in the future.
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    Post by Schnickelfritz on November 12th 2012, 12:39 am

    Oh God, SA2 was in this thread ...
    *Schnickelfritz shudders.
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    Post by Zez on July 28th 2014, 10:13 pm

    Schnickelfritz wrote:Oh God, SA2 was in this thread ...
    *Schnickelfritz shudders.

    Shh, shh, it's okay, it's okay.

    No more bad dreams.
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    Post by Sketch Style on July 28th 2014, 10:15 pm

    After a year or so, now you comfort him?
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    Post by Zez on July 29th 2014, 12:04 am

    It's the thought that enumerates.
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    Post by Sketch Style on July 29th 2014, 4:19 pm

    I hope, for your sake, you're right.
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    Post by CyanSeaFront on August 28th 2014, 4:51 am

    I don't care about canon because everyone -including SEGA- has their own canon. Canon is subjective now; I like ShtH, so it's canon, you don't like it, so it's not.

    Something else is that people judge about the story by gameplay! I bet if 06 was SA3 with an amazing gameplay, people would love the story.

    And about ShtH, since we don't know what levels are from the actual story, we can't be sure whether it's canon or not.

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